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Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)

 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:43 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 15 Nov. 2008, 13:31 )

Quote: (Irisado @ 15 Nov. 2008, 13:12 )

I would actually be happy if they would just make all the old Epic models available via the online store again.  They were such good models, I'm thinking in particular of old Eldar skimmers and Chaos Daemon Engines (but they are my armies, so I am biased  :;): ) which you just can't get any more.  Making the Chaos stuff available again would help LaTD players in particular.

Here's the problem with getting a lot of those old models into production: the molds were destroyed and many of the masters lost/discarded in a big "clean up" years ago.

So, GW would need pristine models to recreate molds from, which isn't very likely either to find or for them to do.

Imagine, if you will, going back through the mists of time, to a period when there used to be seasons, Christmas wasn't talked about until December, there was no such thing as reality television, and mobile phones were something of a rarity (you can guess my feelings on all of those subjects can't you?  :laugh: ).  Anyway, back in those heady days, there was something called Mail Order, and Mail Order had a promise.  That promise was that they could send you any model from the GW collection.  There was not a model that GW had produced that they didn't stock.

Fast forward a decade or so, and that promise has long since turned to dust (yes, I'm paraphrasing the Beautiful South, if anyone can give me the title of the song, there is a cookie available), and I think that it's really sad.  There were so many wonderful old models, and now it's impossible to get them unless you can manage to trade with somebody.  The trouble is that most people understandably don't want to part with the really good old stuff, so you are pretty much stuck.

I hadn't realised that GW had even destroyed all of the original moulds during the big clear out.  I think that was such a short sighted and unwise decision.  They would undoubtedly argue that they needed the space, but considering many newer models that have been made for various ranges in recent years have not necessarily been up to much, it makes me wonder why they bothered to clear out so many of the old ones.

Before somebody says it's all because of money, yes that's highly likely, but you would still have thought they could have at least found the space to keep the original moulds.

I don't think that we will see new models for Epic any time soon, which is something of a mixed blessing.  On the the one hand, it means that it will be just as hard as it has been for some time to field certain armies, and to attract new players of these armies to the game, but on the other, I fear that newer models would not be very good if they were made, especially if they were Forgeworld Resin kits, so perhaps it's just as well we won't be getting new models.

It all makes me weep for the past.  How I wish I had bought more models back then.  Such is the benefit of hindsight.

Thus ends the trip down memory lane.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:07 pm 
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Apart from all sad things that can be said about the perish of those old moulds I believe the "reason" was that this new formula pewter need a higher heat and thus the moulds where gooners anyway.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:15 pm 
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I hadn't realised that GW had even destroyed all of the original moulds during the big clear out.  I think that was such a short sighted and unwise decision.  They would undoubtedly argue that they needed the space, but considering many newer models that have been made for various ranges in recent years have not necessarily been up to much, it makes me wonder why they bothered to clear out so many of the old ones.


This story certainly helped to overly inflate costs. When SM stopped and E40K finally came out you where expected to pay twice as much money for a fifth the quantity of infantry. Now you are expected to pay twice that again for two sprues. Subtle machinations, I don't think so.

I could find it sad but that is not my way. The next time this ... Jervis stands up and dines to condescend to his court of flunkies and sycophants someone aught to tell him to stick his pish right back where it originated... in as polite a way as can be found, obviously.

Now, I'm off to listen to beautiful South music... What?!. a free cookie's a free cookie!

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:24 pm 
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Quote: (Irisado @ 16 Nov. 2008, 12:43 )

Before somebody says it's all because of money, yes that's highly likely, but you would still have thought they could have at least found the space to keep the original moulds.

Unfortunately, it's not *just* because of the money... there were also "personal" reasons.

For example, Man-O-War... ever wonder why it's the one GW game that never saw a "come back" over all these years?  It's not because it's not good... it's a fantastic game and was the inspiration for BFG.  It's because one of the main creators/designers of the game pissed off a higher up who swore that, because of this slight, that Man-O-War would never see the light of day again and he had the molds/masters destroyed after the line was "over"... so it couldn't come back.

I'm not sure about other companies, but GW has had some of the most petty in-company politics and infighting that I've had the misfortune to experience.  I'm sure money/space was a factor in things, but other reasons also played their part.




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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:39 pm 
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Cheers, Chroma. I never knew that bit of gossip. Big business with small minds, eh! Welcome to the old boy networking of corporate enterprise that is prevalent throughout the world. Now... Where's me' pitch fork and me' burning brand.  :devil:

Damn, still not found that song title yet...

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:45 pm 
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Quote: (Irisado @ 16 Nov. 2008, 12:43 )

Fast forward a decade or so, and that promise has long since turned to dust (yes, I'm paraphrasing the Beautiful South, if anyone can give me the title of the song, there is a cookie available)

People just need "A Little Time" to find the name of that song...

/Wedding bells just turn to rust...
//What does pewter turn in to?

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:52 pm 
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Urgh!.. Damn. Well, that's one cookie I wont be eating then.  :))  Well done.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:53 pm 
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Quote: (Irisado @ 16 Nov. 2008, 06:43 )

I fear that newer models would not be very good if they were made, especially if they were Forgeworld Resin kits, so perhaps it's just as well we won't be getting new models.

What's wrong with ForgeWorld models?

-Malakai

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:02 pm 
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Quote: (Malakai @ 16 Nov. 2008, 13:53 )

What's wrong with ForgeWorld models?

At EPIC scale... bubbles... brittleness... and, can't think of another b-word.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:05 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 16 Nov. 2008, 08:02 )

Quote: (Malakai @ 16 Nov. 2008, 13:53 )

What's wrong with ForgeWorld models?

At EPIC scale... bubbles... brittleness... and, can't think of another b-word.

I placed an order with FW, a rather large order, so I'm beginning to become a bit nervous. Is the casting on Epic models really that bad?

-Malakai

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:28 pm 
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Quote: (Malakai @ 16 Nov. 2008, 15:05 )

I placed an order with FW, a rather large order, so I'm beginning to become a bit nervous. Is the casting on Epic models really that bad?

It's not "bad", it's just different is all.  

You've got to be more careful working with it than with plastics or metals, especially with smaller pieces.  Resin will tend to break rather than bend, it doesn't have the "flex" of plastic nor the rigidity of metal.  It's great to work with for larger things because it's light *and* strong.  But for *small* stuff, you just have to pay more attention to what you're doing.  

Additionally, you may get bubbles in resin that you'll have to fill in during clean-up/prep, in addition to potential mold lines and such.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:50 pm 
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Well a couple of points ... the new F/W resin is better (ie. less brittle/fragile then the original ...).  Their concept of keeping all their models "in scale" with 40K versions, means the smaller weapons barrels are extremely thin in most cases ... so that adds to the conundrum. Their Tau and Gray Knights are very detailed ... but a bit "fragile". So I, like other F/W modellers, will glue the old Epic banner poles on their bases to make them easier to pick up. Giving them a "handle" so to speak ... Now that being said, I have all the F/W Epic/AI models and if you are not too careless/"clumzy", you'll be alright.  And remember to wash the F/W resin as if not the mold releaser will cause the paint not to stick.  So basically, they are very well detailed, fragile, expensive, and must be washed to paint ...  And yet ... we buy them ... :rock:                 And on another horror story ... many years ago, my buddy worked at G/W US ... and I was amazed to hear what they destroyed and/or threw away ... Like Man 'O War blisters ... because it was too much work(ie. cost) to open them up and melt them down again ... Old rule books, etc., etc. ... So don't be surprised that G/W was in financial problems before the current worldwide crash ...  :D

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:13 pm 
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Quote: (Legion 4 @ 16 Nov. 2008, 09:50 )

Well a couple of points ... the new F/W resin is better (ie. less brittle/fragile then the original ...). �Their concept of keeping all their models "in scale" with 40K versions, means the smaller weapons barrels are extremely thin in most cases ... so that adds to the conundrum. Their Tau and Gray Knights are very detailed ... but a bit "fragile". So I, like other F/W modellers, will glue the old Epic banner poles on their bases to make them easier to pick up. Giving them a "handle" so to speak ... Now that being said, I have all the F/W Epic/AI models and if you are not too careless/"clumzy", you'll be alright. �And remember to wash the F/W resin as if not the mold releaser will cause the paint not to stick.

Thanks I feel a little better. I have experience working with 40K scale FW stuff so I'm pretty familiar with working with resin. In hindsight I probably shouldn't have placed such a large order at one time with them though. It's going to take me ages to sort through all of the models to find miscasts. Still If given a choice I'd rather deal with FW mold lines than SG mold lines. New SG models are poorly cast and I've gotten to the point of not even asking for replacement pieces unless they are completely ruined.

-Malakai

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:35 pm 
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Well Good luck with the F/W order ...  I never remember having any mis-casts with DRM & Exodus Wars !  :;):

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:45 pm 
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Chroma wins the cookie!  It's on its way to you via the ether.  Enjoy!

On a more serious note, I'm not surprised by that which you had to say about the behind the scenes goings on at GW.  Having read about some of the antics of those at the higher end of the chain of command, I really don't think that there is much of a chance of Epic ever getting proper support, unless of course someone with a a greater degree of interest in anything other than one point of view and pounds, shillings, and pence were to take over at the top.

On the Forgeworld issue, Legion 4 has explained to me exactly why I won't buy anything from them.  It's far to fiddly to put together, its brittle nature, means that it can be damaged in transit, having to wash it is just really unhelpful, and to top it all, if you ever have to file anything the little resin fibres are actually hazardous if your breathe them in, so all in all it is to be avoided in my book.

All these are good reasons why any new Epic products should not be cast in resin.  If they were to be cast in resin, I feel that Epic would end up being even more of a niche game than it currently appears to be.

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