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Jump Packs and War Machines

 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:51 pm 
Swarm Tyrant
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This thread is to discuss the following proposed rule - by Baduin.

A warmachine army is difficult to balance because it is most vunerable to a specialistic TK weapons. So if the opponent knows he will face Titans, he will take more TK weapons. If the list is balanced against a balanced army, it will always loose to a anti-Titan army.

Another problem is that SM have few TK weapons. I have been thinking about a general solution which could help with both problems. In short, I propose making all warmachines more vulnerable to jump-pack infantry in close combat.

It has been often said that every army should have a weakness. I don't think it is entirely correct. I think however it is undisputable that every formation should have a clear weakness, which can be avoided only by cooperation with other formations - eg Ork foot formations are slow, SM formations are small etc.

Titans and Warmachines in general, and specially fearless Warmachines seem to lack such a weakness. Should we for a moment leave the game and try to envision the imagined battlefield, one potential weakness appears - the warmachines are powerful, but not very manouverable. Shoud they be boarded by even one infantryman, they could be easily destroyed.

Titans, and most other warmachines are gigantic, and it wouldn't be easy for an infantryman starting at the groundlevel to reach the hatches. But there is one exception - Jump Packs allow easily to reach hatches, command head of a Titan etc and board it.

Because of that, I would suggest adding the following rule to Jump Pack rules:

"All close combat attacks of an infantry unit with Jump pack special rules, if directed against a warmachine, count as Macro Weapon attacks."

This introduces a clear weakness to warmachines, doesn't requires a new formation or unit and gives a purpose to Assault Marines.

It also provides a dual-use units, which can be used effectively both against Titans and other targets.

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 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:15 am 
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Any sizable vehicle is going to have point defense systems, especially around vulnerable parts.  I feel that this is a tack-on and seems rather artificial.

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 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:56 am 
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I see the concept ... "Commando Raid on a BB" !  Has some merit, but muddies the waters a bit ... My IG, like many, still has "old gray jump troops", too ... :;):

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 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:45 pm 
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I also feel that this would mess with the point value of jump pack troops considerably, and I am not sure that being able to reach higher necessarily equates to being able to hit better. If you cant knock out a Titan at its ankle, are you more likely at the hip?

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 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:41 pm 
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NH/Hena,

Third/fourth that.

First, I disagree with the premis. WE do have a weakness. "BARRAGES" they take more damage from them than anyone else.

The weakest part of any titan is its mobility. Take out the legs and it doesn't shoot very well lying on its side.

Terminators are vicious at taking out titans.

I'm not sure 'jump pack' yeilds the desired effect. Can you imagine [jumping on] a lumbering bipedal beast swaying to and frow as it strides the battlefield - with self propelled packs - meanwhile attempting to avoid the 100s of anti-personnel weapon systems sprinkled all over this thing - and then trying to land on it? Jump packs first have short bursts of loft, the trajectory timing of trying to land on a particular edge of a moving and bobbing building wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world.

Furthermore, it sounds like the poster is really unhappy with Marine jump packers.

This isn't the first time I've heard this complaint - if that's the real root cause of the issue here. (to small of size, not effective enough against armor, etc) But I would suggest he propose new marine rules for the described units he feels are inadequate if that's the real issue.

WE's and combat seem to work quite well and I do not feel a change is in order as described.





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 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:51 pm 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 03 Nov. 2005 (12:45))
I also feel that this would mess with the point value of jump pack troops considerably, and I am not sure that being able to reach higher necessarily equates to being able to hit better. If you cant knock out a Titan at its ankle, are you more likely at the hip?

Agreed.

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 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:44 pm 
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So, what about giving Assault Marines the following stats:

SPACE MARINE ASSAULT
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Infantry 30cm 4+ 3+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Bolt Pistols (15cms) Small Arms ??
Chainswords (base contact) Assault weapon ??
Melta Bombs (base contact) Assault weapon, Macro-weapon, Extra Attacks (+1)*

Notes: Jump Packs.
*Melta Bombs can be used only against war engines

Or, if that makes Assault Marines too good, a special unit, costing more points and with worse close combat ability (since they are burdened with bombs) Similarly to Black Guardians, they could be made distinct by a different paintjob:

TITAN HUNTERS
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Infantry 30cm 4+ 4+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Bolt Pistols (15cms) Small Arms ??
Chainswords (base contact) Assault weapon ??
Melta Bombs (base contact) Assault weapon, Macro-weapon, Extra Attacks (+1)*

Notes: Jump Packs.
*Melta Bombs can be used only against war engines


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 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:55 pm 
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Why restrict melta-bomb usage to WEs?  ??? Why wouldn't they be effective against all vehicles and artillery as well?

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 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:58 pm 
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Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 03 Nov. 2005 (17:55))
Why restrict melta-bomb usage to WEs?  ??? Why wouldn't they be effective against all vehicles and artillery as well?

I think he is trying to deal with 2 problems with SM... The rubbishness of assault troops and their inability to deal with Titans... It took me a long time to be able to deal with an AMTL army. I did it in the end but SM have some problems.

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 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:47 pm 
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Quote (mageboltrat @ 03 Nov. 2005 (18:58))
Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 03 Nov. 2005 (17:55))
Why restrict melta-bomb usage to WEs? ???? Why wouldn't they be effective against all vehicles and artillery as well?

I think he is trying to deal with 2 problems with SM... The rubbishness of assault troops and their inability to deal with Titans... It took me a long time to be able to deal with an AMTL army. I did it in the end but SM have some problems.

I understand why he's trying to improve assault marines, but why the restriction on melta bombs? It just seems to me that they would be effective against other targets as well.

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 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:24 pm 
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I see where he's going now.

I would recommend a suggestion to whereever the mods are for space marine development.

I don'tk now where that development is going on, but those folks may be better prepared to discuss pros/cons of such a change.

At face value, I can see merit in the change.

If there's enough attention and the right folks can be contacted, I'm suer CS and Primarch have room for blood angels, white scars, templars, ultras development.

It would be great to get even more champs and marine player community interested together on these boards with the rest of us!

I only say this because CS menioned this area of the forums was dedicated to 'main book' revisions/experimental rules.

I would encourage the poster to pursue his suggested change with the appropirate folks so his requests didn't fall on deaf ears though. The idea sounds like it might have merit if others have encountered the same problems.

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 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:12 pm 
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Agreed. Right now, I dont want to create development boards dedicated to a force without the Army Champion being on board. I therefore request that all non-core, non-'official development' stuff occurs on the EA board. If the number of 'Marine' threads grows then I can create an 'unofficial' Marine rules board for this purpose.

Since this rule seems to be moving to address a Marine specific issue, probably with a Marine specific rule, I will move it to the EA board. If it comes back to core rule items then I can move it back.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Jump Packs and War Machines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:24 pm 
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Why the melta bombs should be useful only against warmachines?

There are two reasons, I think. First, they really shouldn't be on Terminator level in close combat. I wanted a specialist unit for a particular purpose, not the best close combat unit in the game - for one thing, it would be certain to be rejected.

Second, Melta Bombs can be used only against vehicles in WH40K (unless something changed there lately).

The rule could be "Melta Bombs can be used only if in contact with a vehicle." The problem is that the hits would be distributed according to normal rules, and  could very well reach an infantry unit. There is nothing very wrong with it, but I think it is not optimal.

As hits against war engines are assigned separately, that problem doesn't exist there. The unit has also a specific purpose and serves to supply a vital need in, I hope, a characterful way.


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