Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Skimmers forcing Firefights
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13555		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  scarik [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
Tpoc says it all.

Why can a Valkyrie 'pull out of reach of Ground forces and then not be jumped on by Stormboyz or lanced by Shining Spears?
Author:  redsimon [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
I agree with what Moscovian says in the linked thread, but it should go in the FAQ anyway.
Author:  scarik [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
Thanks for the link.

Should I have come away from reading it with the understanding that Jump troops and other skimmers can't CC skimmers because the designers felt like it even though they are aware the rule is stupid?
Author:  Dave [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
House rule it, I would have no problem with a skimmer being locked in CC with another skimmer or a unit with Jump Packs so long as they are in base to base.
Author:  Moscovian [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
Quote: (redsimon @ 18 Sep. 2008, 11:12 )

I agree with what Moscovian says in the linked thread, but it should go in the FAQ anyway.

Yes, one of several threads that had me banging my head against the wall.  I'll live with the decision but still believe the logic behind it is botched.
Author:  scarik [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
I can feel my interest in Epic:A inexorably slipping away due to stuff like this.

I'm gonna go invent my own wargame... with blackjack... and hookers!
Author:  mspaetauf [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
What's your problem, people?

I don't really think that this rule is stupid (and one of my main enemys is Eldar).

I mean the skimmer doesn't just move out of CC range, it just keeps moving - like someone said in the threat: zipping around each other.

What good is your jump pack if you start several meters away from the enemy and are at the same speed? You're never going to reach it unless the other pilot is extremely stupid (which he won't be otherwise he wouldn't be controling the craft).

I mean if you had a BFG and would be fast and agile, would you stand still and wait for the guy with the chainsaw to really hit you hard? I don't think so....

so imo the rule is quite ok!

cheers,
Author:  Moscovian [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
I agree on jump packs.  I disagree on skimmer vs. skimmer.  Shining Spears are supposed to be like lightening yet they can't catch up to a land speeder?  Or a hammerhead?   :( The rule FAQ I proposed way back when was as simple as simple comes but it got shot down.
Author:  Dave [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
You could add an extra layer to it: if a skimmer has a higher speed than another skimmer it can lock it into CC.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
It's just a matter of what level of complexity is worth including in the rules.

In "reality", if a skimmer were trying to get away from another skimmer, it would quickly devolve into a dogfight style situation with the skimmers dodging and weaving and the huge majority of that would be well out of CC range.  They might occasionally pass close enough to take a shot with a hand weapon, but it would be extremely limited and almost all the action would be the equivalent of a firefight.  Basically, if either side wanted to force FF, they would be able to.  For jump pack troops the ability to force the skimmer to CC would be even more limited.  A jump pack troop might be able to take a swing here or there but certainly not even as much as skimmer v skimmer.

Sure, there are some targets where that justification wouldn't apply.  Maybe zippy little jetbikes should be able to "pin" a hovertank in CC, but surely the reverse situation of a hovertank forcing bikes into CC "stupid" and "botched" as well?

The choice is to make all skimmers the same or to break up the classification into "skimmer light" and "skimmer heavy" where heavies can be pinned by lights and jump pack units, but not other heavies or ground units.

So now you have different designations and almost require a table to differentiate who can CC whom, all for a situation that doesn't arise that often.  Is it worth it for the play experience?

And if you're going to break that up by maneuverability/speed, shouldn't ground units be broken up as well?  Is it reasonable to think a bunch of guys on foot are going to run down jumppack troops?  Can they run down a MBT capable of doing 50mph over broken ground to force it into hand-to-hand combat?  Isn't that every bit as "stupid" and "botched" with respect to justification?
Author:  Moscovian [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
Neal, I think you are carrying the argument to an extreme that nobody (that I know of) has brought up before.  The SGthread that goes back to my original complaint proposed a very simple solution that allowed a middle ground to be reached on skimmer vs. skimmer.  CC-skimmers didn't force their opposing skimmers into CC.  Each side simply chose CC or FF values that they felt were best.  The rule didn't even need changing.  It just required an FAQ that stated in a skimmer vs. skimmer assault, both players may choose to use CC or FF values for any units involved. The RAW seems to indicate that anyway.

The CC-skimmers get their choice.  The FF-skimmer get their choice.  The assault simulates the 'dogfight' that everyone keeps bringing up.  There are no extra steps and nothing new to keep track of.  If you read the old thread Greg was still commenting on the 'compexity' of my proposal when there simply was none - he never got it.

As for a large CC-skimmer (and I can only think of one) the rule could represent it ramming itself into the smaller skimmers, the smaller skimmers getting a bit too close and falling prey to the CC attacks of the larger CC-skimmer, or other situations.  All very abstract and all very much in the spirit of Epic.

But as I said before, it isn't a deal breaker for me.  Unlike Scarik who is apparently willing to burn his Epic collection and scratch build 6mm hookers from the ruins if he doesn't get his way  :vD  :tongue: , I have chocked it up as just one of a couple goofy rules that make me roll my eyes when they come up.
Skimmer vs. Skimmer  :sus:  :oo:
See?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
Actually I find myself quite liking Moscovian's suggestion.


We found in Necron playtesting that straight 'Jump Pack Troops can CC Skimmers' was overpowered, but this sounds much more interesting.
Author:  Irisado [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Skimmers forcing Firefights
Quote: (Moscovian @ 18 Sep. 2008, 19:11 )

Neal, I think you are carrying the argument to an extreme that nobody (that I know of) has brought up before.  The SGthread that goes back to my original complaint proposed a very simple solution that allowed a middle ground to be reached on skimmer vs. skimmer.  CC-skimmers didn't force their opposing skimmers into CC.  Each side simply chose CC or FF values that they felt were best.  The rule didn't even need changing.  It just required an FAQ that stated in a skimmer vs. skimmer assault, both players may choose to use CC or FF values for any units involved. The RAW seems to indicate that anyway.

The CC-skimmers get their choice.  The FF-skimmer get their choice.  The assault simulates the 'dogfight' that everyone keeps bringing up.  There are no extra steps and nothing new to keep track of.  If you read the old thread Greg was still commenting on the 'compexity' of my proposal when there simply was none - he never got it.

Just to check that I'm interpreting this correctly.  The idea would be that if the opposing skimmer were in base contact, one player could opt to use his FF value, while the other could choose his/her CC value if this was the preferred option?  Is this as simple as it seems, or have I missed something?

If it is just that, then I can't see it being a major issue for skimmer vs skimmer assaults.  That said, take everything I say with a pinch of salt, as I've only played two games so far (under EA rules), and you're all a lot more experienced that I am, so I don't know how much my thoughts count for.
Page 1 of 5 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/