True gun aircraft stats |
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ragnarok
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats  Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:49 pm |
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I have been wondering.
Does anyone think if now is the time to redo all the aircraft so that they are true gun. that is, have the correct weapon load compared to the established model (for example the true gun baneblade has 2 extra heavy bolters compared to the ruel book one and all three heavy bolters are twin linked).
It seems that the air raft are lowly becoming more powerful with each new list, so is now the time to redo all the aircraft from scatch, and possible add new ones.
From what I can gather the only aircraft that are undergunned are the tunderbolt, Marauder, thunder hawk and fighta bomma.
the thunderbolt should have a quad autocannon and a twin las cannon
The marauder should have DC, it is as big as a thunderhawk, and one of its heav bolters should have a reduced arc (rear) but a larger range.
The Thunderhawk should have a pair of las cannons
The fighta bomma needs some fixed forward big shootas, as well as its dorsal mounted ones.
The fighta bomma and Thunderhawk are the easiest ones to do and price check
Followed by the marauder (since it has a slightdowngrade/ no change for its guns and added survivability)
the Thundebolt is the problem, since it is going from a multilaser and storm bolter (why by all that is unholy does it have storm bolters?) to a quad auto cannon (two twin linked?) and a twin las cannon.
Also, is now the time to change the rules so that the aircraft stay on the table? In my game against Fluffy on Saturday there was no point in moving them onto the table, with no AA opposing them I just placed them over the target, then removed them in the end phase.
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BlackLegion
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:54 am |
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Something like this?
Flyer movement
Upon activation Aircrafts enter play on the controlling players own table edge. Aircrafts have an unlimited movement but have to move at least 30cm before they can turn. Fighters can turn up to 90? and Bombers up to 45?. Fighter-Bombers turn like Bombers on the approach move and like Fighters after they made a Bombing Run*. Because most Aircrafts in the Wh40k universe have vector engines they can choose to turn more than the allowed amount. They can then turn up to 360? but will suffer a -1 penalty on all their shooting attacks and can't make a Bombing Run because of the loss of accuracy which comes along with such a swift manouver. Aircrafts ignore any terrain and Zone of Controls on their move.
*This assumes that bombs are one-shot weapons and the last bombs are dropped.
In the end phase the Aircrafts can choose to fire up its trusters and disengange from the board in the direction it is currently facing (no turning allowed). If the Aircraft has made an Air Assault or Transport action the Aircraft can turn in any direction before disenganging.
Alternatively an Aircraft can choose to remain where it is (and rally in the same way as ground formations to remove Blastmarkers)or switch to Hover Mode (see below)
Bombing Run
Some Aircrafts are noted to having Bombs. Bombs can be dropped on any point of the Aircrafts movement. Use the Barage Template and the Barrge rules to work out the results with the exception that all the templates have to be placed in a straight line following the Aircrafts move starting where the Aircraft has last made a turn or entered the board if it hasn't turned yet and can't be placed farther away than the Aircraft has moved. So if the Aircraft has moved 30cm after its last turn all Templates have to be placed in a line no more than 30cm long.
Some Aircrafts are equipped with Hellstorm bombs. Instead of using the Barrage rules place the Teardrop Template exactly on the Aircrafts movement path so that the narrow end points in the direction the Aircraft started its move and the round end points where the Aircraft ended its move. All units touched by the Flame Templated are attacked once. Roll to hit as usual.
Hover Mode
Some Aircrafts have the Hover Mode special ability. In the end phase they can choose to switch to Hover Mode and become an Armoured Vehicle (or War Engine if it has multiple hits) with the Skimmer special ability and a Speed of 35cm (Fighter), 30cm (Fighter-Bomber) or 25cm (Bomber). In the end phase of the next turn the Aircraft can choose to remain in Hover Mode or take off and disengange in any direction. In Hover Mode the Aircraft can't use any Bombs.
If i have time i will post all Aircraft stats in the next 24-48h.
Now i will go to bed 
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BlackLegion
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:12 pm |
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ragnarok
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:57 pm |
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Can't wait.
I was actually thining of rules that kept the aircraft on table, turn in turn out.
they would each have a different minmum and maximum distance travel and one of three turning rates
Bommer 45 degrees after every 30cm
Fighta 90 degrees after every 30cm
agile (eldar, hell baldes and lightnings) 90 degreees after every 30cm and a free turn before they move
Bommers would have a certain numbers of sticks they could drop. For example the marauder could have 4 2BP one shot weapons
Flak attacks would only happen if the aircraft moves past an AA unit (so no flak rush for the siengage move.
I could also see a variable jinx save. 5+ for bommer, 4+ for fighters and 3+ for agile.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:00 pm |
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Bommers would have a certain numbers of sticks they could drop. For example the marauder could have 4 2BP one shot weapons
The problem with this is everyone would use all of the sticks on the first target they came across, then go tank-hunting for the rest of the game.
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ragnarok
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:37 pm |
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With 2 AT4+ shots?
I would prefer to drop the sticks in two groups of 2, to allow satuation of tanks with bombs.
2 AT 4+ shots are only really good for placing BM or possible slowling down mechanised infantry formations, and that is easily solved by removing the AT value from the marauders nose guns.
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Soren
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:21 pm |
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An epic turn are 15! minutes. I am wondering what the Marauders are doing the other 14m 45sec they do not use for their attack run.  . I think that?s the reason why this weapons are not one shot (and should not be)
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BlackLegion
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:22 am |
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Finished!
For how i calculated the AA value:
If the weapon has an AA-mount: AP or AT (whichever is better*) = AA
If the weapon has no AA-mount: AP or AT (whichever is better*) = AA+2
Missiles have never an AA-value, only if they are guided in some way.
*because Aircrafts are in essence flying Light Vehicles with a few heavier armoured exeptions.
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ragnarok
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:33 pm |
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I have only had a quick look through, but a few questions/observations
Why they very low AA value on las cannons?
Shouldn't the las cannons on the thunderhawk be twin linked? I know they afre not next to each other, but they are spinal.
8BP per fighta bomma is quite alot, or are you planning on reducing the sqwadron size?
Why do the twin rail cannons on the AX10 have an AA mode?
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Irondeath
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:53 pm |
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Those Quad AC and Twin-Linked Lascannon are common staple for a number of Aeronautica Imperialis flyers. It?s just a generic name for aircraft weapons IMO.
Since the T-Bolt is working fine and the tweaked Marauder okay, I?d leave them alone and just assume that those Stormbolters are Quad AC and the Multi Laser that TL Lascannon.
Unless, of course, you?d like to significiantly boost airpower at the expense of the ground game, something that I believe was deliberately avoided when those stats were incepted.
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ragnarok
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:23 pm |
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The quad auto cannons and twin las arre canon (or at least as canon as anything gets with GW  ). They are in the stats for the planes in both FW and GW rule books.
The reason I started this thread to see if the rule book planes should be up gunned is that they don't have the weapons that the models and background do and all the newer races do. As a result they are bring out ranged and out gunned when they shouldn't be.
If air power is to be reduced, then it should be across the board.
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BlackLegion
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:50 am |
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Why they very low AA value on las cannons?
They don't have an AA-mount. Because of this they hit only on a 6 instead of using the pilots BS.
As i posted above all weapon which could be used against aircrafts but don't have an AA-mount have a -2 modifier.
Shouldn't the las cannons on the thunderhawk be twin linked? I know they afre not next to each other, but they are spinal.
There are some discrepancies between FW and Apocalypse stats. Some weapon which are twin-linked in the IA books are separate in Apocalypse. So this stats are open to debate on ALL aircrafts. I put twin weapons as twin-linked where it seems sensible. Could be that i forgot to do this with the Thunderhawk.
8BP per fighta bomma is quite alot, or are you planning on reducing the sqwadron size?
I calculated 1BP per bomb. But i can go down with it and calculate with 1BP per TWO bombs. In this case halve all BP values on all the aircrafts.
Why do the twin rail cannons on the AX10 have an AA mode?
It is much more agil than the Manta and thus should be able to shoot them at aicrafts.
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BlackLegion
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:12 pm |
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I updated the stats for bombs and removed the -15cm for weapons which have an AA stat and a wider firing arc than FxF
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BlackLegion
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:31 pm |
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It seems that Aircrafts have true-stats armour. Not like Light Vehicles with Skimmer.
Aircrafts and Light Vehicles have one things in common:
Same poor all around armour value (10/10/10, the lowest in Wh40k. Only the "helicopter"-style Aircrafts and the Thunderhawk have better values) which translates to a 6+ armour save in Epic.
But Aircrafts can be only hit with AA-weapons while Skimmer Light Vehiles have a better armour save (4+).
So why do i state all this?
Well "true-stats" aircrafts seem to be viewed as overgunned. Be it to much range so that ground AA is no threat or to much firepower with weak defensive abilities (so they either blast lots of troops into oblivion or do nothing because they are easily shot down).
Solution: Give all armour 6+ aircrafts ar 4+ armour save and let them be shot at by ALL weapons with a shooting attack as if they where ground based Light Vehicles but with -15cm range because of the altitude. AA-attacks as described in the rulebook would not be used.
Would this work?
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Kleomenes
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Post subject: True gun aircraft stats Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:38 pm |
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It would seem to impose 40k limitations on a game pitched at a much higher, and more 'realistic'* feel. I mean how often, realistically, are planes brought down by small arms fire, or even support weapons not specifically on AA mounts
*MORE realistic relative to 40k, I know we arent playing 'Firefly' or something here
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