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Aircraft embarking
Mephiston
 Post subject: Aircraft embarking
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:35 pm 
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There is a long thread either on here or the SG site started by Biggles/Ginger.

The end result was the only way for a formation to board an A/C and the A/C to disengage was for the formation to use its activation to move onto the A/C.
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Mephiston
 Post subject: Aircraft embarking
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:11 pm 
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From memory its something to do with the ground formation having activated already. I'll try and find the thread if Biggles/Ginger doesn't drop by before find it.

[EDIT] Here is the thread, a warning its long!

Specialist games thread
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Mephiston
 Post subject: Aircraft embarking
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:16 pm 
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Right I've actually reread the thread and I think you are right. If you land and all units in a formation are within 5cm you can pick them up and leave and if you have room another formation could activate and move into base contact with the flyer and embark too. 4.2.5 gives you the extra 5 cms 3.1.3 does not.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Aircraft embarking
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:39 pm 
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To summarise the thread, there are several versions of troop embarkation and disembarkation involving War Engines (See 1.7.5 and 3.1.3 for the other rules governing formation size etc.) :-
  • 1.7.5 governs the embarkation / disembarkation of troops into transport vehicles (including War Engines) that are part of the same formation. Here the transport moves over the unit(s) that need to be picked up, and they end that period of movement embarked into the transport. If the formation has further movement capability (because it is doubling or marching), the troops can disembark at the end of that subsequent movement.

  • Transport War Engines in a separate formation have different rules governing embarkation / disembarkation described in section 3.1.3.
    Here, the troop formation must move to the WE, embarking at the end of it's movement. Furthermore, the WE is then prohibited from taking an action later in the turn. However, a WE formation may activate first (including disembarking troops as part of that activation) and then later in the turn a different troop formation may move to the WE and embark.

  • Air transport (War Engines) have the additional ability to land near a troop formation embarking the troops as part of the transport activation, and disengaging at the end of the turn.

    Air transport may also disengage with troops that have embarked under 3.1.3 provided the?troops did not embark as part of a Consolidation move (which is deemed replace the disengagement step in the end phase). This means that Air transport may still disengage if troops have used other movement (normal or withdrawal) to embark onto the landed transport. (Note, as you know, Disengagement is not an activation)
So, to answer Hena's question, Eldar could fire at the start or during movement, and use their final movement to embark onto the WE under 3.1.3. All races (including Eldar) can activate the troop formation, including firing, and subsequently have an Air transport land and embark the troops under 4.2.5.

Does that make sense?




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Aircraft embarking
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:40 pm 
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As noted, the "free embark" is on landing, not disengaging.  To be clear, you don't get the free embark if you disembark.  The rule states "alternatively" which makes it either/or.

Also, as a side note, the free embark rule just refers to "friendly units" and is not restricted to a single formation.  As long as all units are in range to embark and there is room in the transport it doesn't matter how many formations are included.

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Aircraft embarking
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:22 am 
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so to ask a question to clear it up for myself, if a vampire does an air assault and engages with the troops inside then the troops can't use there hit and run move to re-embark the vampire, but if the vampire planetfalls, the troops dis-embark but may do an action later in that turn, that means they end up within 5cm of it are the troops then able to re-embark and the vampire dis-engage as normal?

i ask this question because i just started painted my vampire so i can us them.

Edit: it's really late and i can't sleep (i.e. forming cohereant words is just luck)




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Aircraft embarking
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:23 am 
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An aircraft can either embark, or disembark, only once per turn.

It cannot do both and still be able to fly away in the end phase.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Aircraft embarking
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:14 pm 
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(Pulsar @ Feb. 27 2008,02:22)
QUOTE
so to ask a question to clear it up for myself, if a vampire does an air assault and engages with the troops inside then the troops can't use there hit and run move to re-embark the vampire, but if the vampire planetfalls, the troops dis-embark but may do an action later in that turn, that means they end up within 5cm of it are the troops then able to re-embark and the vampire dis-engage as normal?

i ask this question because i just started painted my vampire so i can us them.

Edit: it's really late and i can't sleep (i.e. forming cohereant words is just luck)

If any troops embark as part of their consolidation move after combat, the air transport may not disengage during the end phase. The Eldar hit-and-run does allow them to move further after combat, but this still holds true even for the sneaky pointy heads.

When a Spaceship activates, all the planetfalling units arrive as part of the Spaceship activation, (and generally the contents of any transport are disembarked all as part of that single spaceship activation). This means that later in the turn, the (landed) transport may perform a sustained fire action, and at some other point, friendly troops may embark onto the transport as part of their own (not the transport's) activation. and finally the air transport may disengage in the end phase.
    So for example the following actions are legal:-
    - a Marine Landingcraft could planetfall with a bunch of troops, disembarking three formations;
    - the Landing craft sustains against some enemy;
    - two formations activate assaulting the enemy supported by the third and the Landing Craft;
    - the third formation embarks onto the Landing craft as it's activation;
    - Finally the Landing Craft disengages ready for a further assault next turn
When Neal said that an Air Transport may disembark or embark troops (not both), he was refering to the Air Transports activation, which prevents it from landing beside some troops and swapping them for troops it is carrying - it does not prevent the transport from disembarking its troops as part of it's ground assault, and later for another formation embarking as part of it's own activation.

Finally, please note that you can consolidate back onto the transport if you want to; it just means that the transport remains on the ground throughout the following turn.

One other point to note is that when a bunch of troops embark onto the transport, they effectively become part of the transport's formation, so the size of the transport is notionally increased for the purposes of shooting / assault resolutions etc. (ie if someone else shoots or assaults the transport). For example, you might want to withdraw 3x broken tactical Marines onto a Thunderhawk to rally the formation off-table, relying on the transport's armour to protect them from further damage. In this case, the Thunderhawk 'formation' increases to 5x. And before you ask, if shooting at a transport containing broken formation(s), you have to allocate a BM to something. If you want to, you can allocate it to the transport itself, potentially breaking the transport etc. Here, the enlarged Thunderhawk 'formation' is not broken until it receives four further blast markers (though the marines inside are still broken for all purposes), after which shooting at it will automatically cause a further hit on either the Thunderhawk or the marines inside.




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Ginger
 Post subject: Aircraft embarking
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:36 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 27 2008,09:23)
QUOTE
An aircraft can either embark, or disembark, only once per turn.

It cannot do both and still be able to fly away in the end phase.

E&C, while I understand your views, you are not quite right here as Neal pointed out in that long thread on the SG site.

From the way the FAQ is written, it is only the act of Consolidation that prevents the transport from disengaging in the end phase and nothing else. In practice having tried various permutations of this, IMHO the restriction makes it more expensive and much harder to get troops off under fire and is thus quite balanced. The problem is that the idea is hard to grasp until you get hold of the Consolidation concept and ignore everything else.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Aircraft embarking
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:53 pm 
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(Pulsar @ Feb. 27 2008,02:22)
QUOTE
so to ask a question to clear it up for myself, if a vampire does an air assault and engages with the troops inside then the troops can't use there hit and run move to re-embark the vampire

They couldn't use hit and run at all.  Aside from disembarking, there is no ground movement with a ground attack.  If they did an assault, they could use their consolidation move to embark, but that prevents the Vampire from disengaging in the end phase.

but if the vampire planetfalls, the troops dis-embark but may do an action later in that turn, that means they end up within 5cm of it are the troops then able to re-embark and the vampire dis-engage as normal?


No.  The "free embark" is for aircraft landings.  The troops load when the aircraft lands.  That means they sit there in the aircraft until the end of the turn, so you better be prepared.

There is no "free embark" when disengaging or for planetfall.

====

It sounds like what you want to do is air assault, load/disengage, then repeat on the following turn.  You can't do that.  The consolidation restriction was put in effect specifically to stop the "eternal air assault" as it was dubbed.

There are various options for multiple air assaults.

1)  Use 2 aircraft, one empty.  Assault with one, consolidate, and use the second to land/shoot/free embark.

2)  You can alternate turns by leaving the force on the board and re-loading the transport in the following turn.
Turn 1: Air assault.
Turn 2: Activate the ground formation and end their action in position to be picked up (aircraft can land within 5cm of all).  Land/shoot/freemebark.
Turn 3:  Air assault.

3)  Air assault.  Move a second formation onto the aircraft using the normal WE transport rules.  Disengage and air assault with the second formation on the following turn.  For example,  DAs assault a target near some Reapers.  The Reapers fire/move and use their movement to board the aircraft.  The Reapers are ready for a Turn 2 air assault.

Of these, I think #2 is the most viable and, if I'm not mistaken, it was the brain child of Biggles and his Marine army.  #3 could work really well, but you have to have the enemy in just the right spot, near a formation that can shoot/move.  Most people think #1 is prohibitively expensive.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Aircraft embarking
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:56 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 27 2008,09:23)
QUOTE
An aircraft can either embark, or disembark, only once per turn.

It cannot do both and still be able to fly away in the end phase.

What Ginger said.  Only consolidation moves stop disengage.

You can embark or disembark any number of units or formations without affecting disengaging, as long as none of them board via consolidation.

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Aircraft embarking
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:02 am 
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thanks for the answers guys it was how i through but i still needed to make sure that me or anybody else i played could not do is air assault, load/disengage, then repeat on the following turn,

thanks

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