Tactical Command :: View topic

(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 31 2007,10:44)

QUOTE

- The portal is blocked (My units were on top of and surrounding it).

We couldn't remember what happened (I know it's been debated here somewhere), so we let two Eldar bases go into CC, and the rest of the bases then came out as the IG base on top of the portal now had two enemies in base contact and was thus 'full' and unable to block the portal anymore.

I've a feeling we either played it wrong, or that the rules were never pinned down on the mechanic here in the first place...

There are 2 ways to block movement: ?ZoC and phyical barrier.

It only takes a single unit in base contact to shut down the ZoC, so after the first stand was in contact the other troops could have (theoretically) bypassed the unit.

A physical barrier doesn't go away. ?You can't move units over other units (with the exception for friendly AV/inf). ?If you had enough units that you could physically prevent the Eldar formation from coming on the board, they're stuck. ?They can't be placed on board at all.

If there is not enough room for all the Eldar stands to come on board, I would treat it like a formation that loses coherency for any other reason - kill the units out of formation (those still in the webway) and 1 BM per lost unit on the remainder of the formation. ?The formation could try to assault out, but it would take massive casualties, even if it won (you could think of the coherency-kills more like the units dying in droves as they emerged from the gate into massed fire, rather than the more esoteric coherency kill).

The official wraithgate model is right at 40cm wide and (iirc) a bit wider than an infantry stand. ?It would take 6 infantry stands to surround a wraithgate to the point that no enemy stand could fit on the board. ?With 4 you could encircle it with a physical barrier, but there would then be room for at least some units to come out.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:44 am ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
These came up in a game yesterday vs. Eldar: - The portal is blocked (My units were on top of and surrounding it). We couldn't remember what happened (I know it's been debated here somewhere), so we let two Eldar bases go into CC, and the rest of the bases then came out as the IG base on top of the portal now had two enemies in base contact and was thus 'full' and unable to block the portal anymore. I've a feeling we either played it wrong, or that the rules were never pinned down on the mechanic here in the first place... - If two formations are in the same piece of terrain, and one declairs and Engage order and firefights, does the defender get to claim a cover save? We played yes they do, as if you're both in the same piece of terrain and you fire ranged shots we would give the cover save as well. Not entirely sure we were playing it correctly there though either.

Author:	Chroma [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 31 2007,10:44) QUOTE - The portal is blocked (My units were on top of and surrounding it). I don't think it was ever actually decided what happens in this situation. We've actually been playing it that the Eldar can't come out of the Portal until the enemy has been cleared away be another formation! - If two formations are in the same piece of terrain, and one declairs and Engage order and firefights, does the defender get to claim a cover save? Yep, that's how it works, but there's something else to consider: LOS in terrain is only 10cm, so only units within 10cm of the enemy can actually make attacks! We discovered this when we were having a battle in large grain fields... made for a very cool image, battling in the rows of "corn"!

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
Aye both formations were within range, but it meant that my IG had 4+ cover saves whilst the Eldar attackers had only their native armour. It'd be good if we could get a call on the portal question.

Author:	nealhunt [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 31 2007,10:44) QUOTE - The portal is blocked (My units were on top of and surrounding it). We couldn't remember what happened (I know it's been debated here somewhere), so we let two Eldar bases go into CC, and the rest of the bases then came out as the IG base on top of the portal now had two enemies in base contact and was thus 'full' and unable to block the portal anymore. I've a feeling we either played it wrong, or that the rules were never pinned down on the mechanic here in the first place... There are 2 ways to block movement: ZoC and phyical barrier. It only takes a single unit in base contact to shut down the ZoC, so after the first stand was in contact the other troops could have (theoretically) bypassed the unit. A physical barrier doesn't go away. You can't move units over other units (with the exception for friendly AV/inf). If you had enough units that you could physically prevent the Eldar formation from coming on the board, they're stuck. They can't be placed on board at all. If there is not enough room for all the Eldar stands to come on board, I would treat it like a formation that loses coherency for any other reason - kill the units out of formation (those still in the webway) and 1 BM per lost unit on the remainder of the formation. The formation could try to assault out, but it would take massive casualties, even if it won (you could think of the coherency-kills more like the units dying in droves as they emerged from the gate into massed fire, rather than the more esoteric coherency kill). The official wraithgate model is right at 40cm wide and (iirc) a bit wider than an infantry stand. It would take 6 infantry stands to surround a wraithgate to the point that no enemy stand could fit on the board. With 4 you could encircle it with a physical barrier, but there would then be room for at least some units to come out.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
Sounds like we played it about right. There was a gap in my formation around the portal, so as infiltrators we let the rest of the Warp Spiders slip out to firefight.

Tactical Command http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Two Q's http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10862	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Ginger [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:19 am ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
(nealhunt @ Oct. 31 2007,13:38) QUOTE (Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 31 2007,10:44) QUOTE - The portal is blocked (My units were on top of and surrounding it). We couldn't remember what happened (I know it's been debated here somewhere), so we let two Eldar bases go into CC, and the rest of the bases then came out as the IG base on top of the portal now had two enemies in base contact and was thus 'full' and unable to block the portal anymore. I've a feeling we either played it wrong, or that the rules were never pinned down on the mechanic here in the first place... There are 2 ways to block movement: ?ZoC and phyical barrier. It only takes a single unit in base contact to shut down the ZoC, so after the first stand was in contact the other troops could have (theoretically) bypassed the unit. A physical barrier doesn't go away. ?You can't move units over other units (with the exception for friendly AV/inf). ?If you had enough units that you could physically prevent the Eldar formation from coming on the board, they're stuck. ?They can't be placed on board at all. If there is not enough room for all the Eldar stands to come on board, I would treat it like a formation that loses coherency for any other reason - kill the units out of formation (those still in the webway) and 1 BM per lost unit on the remainder of the formation. ?The formation could try to assault out, but it would take massive casualties, even if it won (you could think of the coherency-kills more like the units dying in droves as they emerged from the gate into massed fire, rather than the more esoteric coherency kill). The official wraithgate model is right at 40cm wide and (iirc) a bit wider than an infantry stand. ?It would take 6 infantry stands to surround a wraithgate to the point that no enemy stand could fit on the board. ?With 4 you could encircle it with a physical barrier, but there would then be room for at least some units to come out. Neal, As you know, there has never been agreement or a formal position on this. Having said that, I do like what you are suggesting here, which is in effect suggesting that a few enemy units will have to be engaged to emerge from the gate, which sufficient numbers (or a big enough WE) will actually block the gate. So, we are proposing that the wraithgate is siting on a base some 3-4 inches in diameter. It can be physically blocked by having contiguous enemy units right around the gate's base together with another unit on the base itself (a total of 7x enemy units?). If one or other of these conditions is not met, then some Eldar may emerge into combat with the enemy (2x on to the base either side of the gate, and then through any gaps left by the enemy). Infiltrators may infiltrate etc. Although a rough summary, do these principles work?

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:05 am ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
It seemed the most logical way to play it at the time; It's never come up in our group before now.

Author:	nealhunt [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
As you know, there has never been agreement or a formal position on this. Having said that, I do like what you are suggesting here, which is in effect suggesting that a few enemy units will have to be engaged to emerge from the gate, which sufficient numbers (or a big enough WE) will actually block the gate. I thought LordI and Greg were both in agreement on my interpretation. Sotec wanted to do something different, but he dropped the proposed changes to gates (ZoC and such). Of course, it wouldn't be the first time I've misremembered something. What is your recollection of a dispute? So, we are proposing that the wraithgate is siting on a base some 3-4 inches in diameter. It can be physically blocked by having contiguous enemy units right around the gate's base together with another unit on the base itself (a total of 7x enemy units?). If one or other of these conditions is not met, then some Eldar may emerge into combat with the enemy (2x on to the base either side of the gate, and then through any gaps left by the enemy). Infiltrators may infiltrate etc. I can't quite picture what you are talking about. Why would the base for a gate need to be 7-10cm across when the gate model is only ~4cm? With respect to engaging, it only takes one unit in base contact to remove the ZoC. The Eldar wouldn't be forced to move 2x into base contact, just 1x, until they negated enough ZoC that the follow on units had space tht wasn't in a ZoC. Obviously, they could still move 2x the number into base contact if they wanted to.

Author:	Moscovian [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
I agree with Neal. However theoretically there is nothing wrong that I can tell with a player making a wraithgate model that has larger dimensions and therefore being more difficult to block. So a person coming into a tournament might be able to improve his position by making a bigger model. Since it isn't a unit I don't think the opposing player can even say anything about it since it wouldn't fall under the 'counts as' section. Any thoughts?

Author:	TheLimey [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
Unless we make a standard size for all wraithgates, then no, there is nothing we can do to prevent a bigger model being used. So, do we have to standardise? 4cm by 2cm?

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
I think the Eldar Wraithgate should be standardised according to the Wraithgate size that SG sells, if it's an issue.

Author:	Pulsar [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
an easy way to standardies the size of a wraithgate would be to use the SG one, but that means that you have to buy that one, what if the person wanted to make one, there should be a way to make it a standard size in the rules so that people can make there own, what about making it a DC 3 WE of some type, therefore if 6 bases got in base contact you could'nt use it? i know it yet another speical rule for the Eldar but we need something.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
i know it yet another speical rule for the Eldar but we need something. With the removal of Spirit Stones, there's space for a new rule... The only thing is... as a 3DC war engine, it could be destroyed! The list was never designed with that in mind...

Author:	Pulsar [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Two Q's
(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 31 2007,12:36) QUOTE but it meant that my IG had 4+ cover saves whilst the Eldar attackers had only their native armour. doesn't that give the defenders a big advatge?

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