Tactical Command
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First strike and other attacks
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10545		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  rpr [ Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks
A unit has first strike melee attack and MW extra melee attack.
The units base-to-base contact enemy is killed by first strike.

Does it get
  a) to firefight
  b) to get its extra MW melee attack, even it is no longer in base-to-base contact
  c) neither, sorry
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks
It firefights.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks
Because it's logical.
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks
Correct and Correct.

It loses the CC MW attack but ccan still FF in the normal sequence of events.
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks
I understood from this thread and others that First Strike was treated as a separate round of combat.

So the sequence of events for assaults in the Book rules is
1) First strike attacks are rolled for, allocated and resolved. Dead units are removed to one side.
2) Normal attacks are rolled for and allocated to remaining units, then
3) MW attacks are rolled for and allocated
4) Normal and MW hits are resolved. Dead units are removed to one side.
5) Assault resolution takes place considering all dead units.

This means that Rough riders can kill the unit they are in CC with using first strike, and then use their FF values in the normal round of combat to fight some other unit. ?You would only get to use the Commisar CC MW Extra attack (along with the normal CC attack) if the First Strike attack failed to kill the enemy in B-B. Equally, you would lose this extra attack if the First Strike killed the B-B opponent. (so try to ensure he is in contact with at least two enemy :D )

Finally under the hit allocation rules (front-to-back), normal and MW hits can get allocated to the same unit - so if the normal attack kills the enemy, the MW hit is wasted.
Author:  pixelgeek [ Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks
I would think that a) is the correct option.

A unit's attacks are not locked in but are based on their position relativeto an enemy unit when the attacks are rolled in an assault.

The First Strike removes the enemy in base-to-base and then when it is time to determine the "normal" assault combats it is not in base-to-base and is therefore able to use its Firefight.

Actual unit stats would make this easier to answer though as you don't indicate where the MW attack is coming from... a unit or weapon
Author:  rpr [ Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks
So you think that if rough riders or howling banshees kill their base-to-base enemies via first strike, they ALSO get to firefight? So, having first strike CC and normal FF is often better than having first strike applying both to CC and FF like warp spiders? (as the latter never allows possible extra attack)
Author:  Markconz [ Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks
By my understanding of the rules the answer is C.
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks
A unit will normally only have one attack in an engagement.

In the case of the book version of Rough Riders were they have an extra attack which is First Strike, they have two attacks a FS CC attack and a subsequent CC/FF attack if in BtB contact or not.

In the case of Howling Banshees, they only have 1 attack, so if they are in BtB contact they benefit from attacking first with FS, but if they are not then they attack normally with their FF.

In the original case if the unit in BtB kills the opposing unit in normal combat before the extra attack then the MW attack is lost as it can be only used in BtB.

As clear as mud then.
Author:  Ginger [ Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks

(rpr @ Sep. 17 2007,07:21)
QUOTE
So you think that if rough riders or howling banshees kill their base-to-base enemies via first strike, they ALSO get to firefight? So, having first strike CC and normal FF is often better than having first strike applying both to CC and FF like warp spiders? (as the latter never allows possible extra attack)

On the SG forums, Neal Hunt considered each combat round as separate from the next; so the "First Strike" combat round is separate from the normal combat round. The target for each unit's attacks (ie CC or FF) is determined in every combat round, not just once at the start of the assault.

So to answer your question, where a unit has more than one attack, one of which is "First Strike", it can use CC in one round and FF in the next if appropriate. Rough Riders all get two attacks (three if a commissar is present) so may have different targets in each round. However the additional attacks for the Howling Banshee or Warp Spider only apply to those units with an Exarch or Autarch attached - the other units in the formation only get one attack each, it is just resolved earlier.

"First Strike" applied to a unit is much better than when applied to a particular weapon because it is always available and all the Unit's attacks get resolved earlier (potentially reducing the number of retaliatory attacks), but in ideal circumstances there is little to choose between the two - you still get the same number of attacks.

FF is more effective and easier to use than CC. So the Warp Spider Exarch (with two First Strike FF attacks) is much better than the Howling Banshee Exarch, which must be placed in B-B with two enemy to be sure that both attacks are used (one First Strike CC and one normal MW Extra attack).

-------------------------
Edit - Tim got in first while I was typing this more labourious answer  :p
Author:  Ginger [ Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks
To clear up one other point, according to the book the separate combat rounds for "First Strike", "Normal", and "MW" attacks are handled slightly differently.

The "First Strike" combat round is completed, hits allocated and resolved and the dead units removed before going on to the "Normal" round. Thus the targets for a unit with multiple attacks including First Strike may change from this round to the next.

However according to the E:A rules book, hits allocated in the "Normal" round are not resolved before going on to the "MW" round, so the target(s) for each unit do not change before the MW round, and as all hits are allocated front-to-back, any MW hits achieved may well be allocated to units that already have one or more "Normal" hits.

Most people adopt a speed rolling approach resolving hits and removing dead units between each combat round, which is why Tim (and others) say that there may not be a 'target' for a unit with a CC MW weapon (because the target has already been killed by the "Normal" hits) - and it should be noted that both approaches tend to have the same result, (though not always).
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks
I think there is a confusion in reading rpr's question.  Look at it again:A unit has first strike melee attack and MW extra melee attack.

Separate out those attacks as they are written.  Resist the urge to conflate them into a generic "2 attacks in assault" concept.

The normal, basic assault attack is FS.  It's not an extra attack.  That is the key to answering the question.  The unit's basic assault attack is still FF or CC.  The fact that the CC attack has a special ability doesn't really matter.  That just means basic assault attack choice CC(w/FS) or FF.

The CCMW is an extra attack that could possibly apply in addition to the basic attack.  In this case, it doesn't apply.  It is basically irrelevant to answering the question.

Based on rpr's conditions, if the FS kills the target, there are no other attacks.  The basic assault attack was "used up" on FS CC.  The MWCC no longer applies.  There is no attack left to FF.

The answer is C.


If FS were on an "extra attack" the answer would be completely different.  In that case, the FS attack would not "use up" the basic attack.  The FSCC would apply as the extra attack.  The basic attack would still be pending and would be used for CC or FF based on whether the unit was in base contact.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  First strike and other attacks
Hmmm, I missed that the first strike attack was not an extra attack, thus in the example given both attacks have First Strike; thus Neal's right.
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