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New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
primarch	Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 1:17 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! Primarch>> no one can take his actions seriously becasue they will assume (rightly so) that it IS personal. I'm not so sure that it's "rightly so."  I understand it is very hard not to take it personally, but that doesn't make it right. I know I write things that get taken completely differently from how they are intended, and I worked as a business writer for almost 4 years. Interpretation of intent of words on the net is always frought with peril. Key body language is missing from the communication and thus makes transmitting intent tricky. In the case of the person in question, his deamenor and choice of words are repetitve and show a pattern. You may misinterpret the first couple of messages and give the benefit of the doubt, but in this case the emotional content behind the way the message is delivered was obvious enough for many different people to agree that the way it was "pitched" could be "hostile". If it wasn't that obvious we wouldn't talking about it now. So, I would never jump the gun on comments made to me the first, second or even quite a few, but thee comes a point where the behavior is a pattern that is easily identified and interpreted. In that case, any "retort" IS justifed. But granted, I certainly dont beleive in turning the other cheek.... Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules

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dafrca

Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:47 am

Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA

Quote (primarch @ 15 2003 Aug.,16:54) Hi! So Neal, that's why I raise the arguements. ?I want to hear a REALLY good reason why we can't do things. ?So far, "because Jervis wants too" is not good enough for me. ?I doubt he's even playtested enough himself. ?He's running a business! I think he's got a lot of theories and waits to see how they are tested by us. Well you pretty much summed up my position as well. If he wanted feedback on "his" way of doing this and then was questioned/challenged on it and his only answer is "because I dont want to", then IMO, why ask for feedback at all? In that case just design the rules like GW always does and release when your done. If you ask for an opinion you must be prepared for a positive response or a negative one. If you are only willing to hear positive ones and dismiss the negative, then you aren't "really" asking for an opinion, just agreement with your original premise. Primarch Let's be clear, Jervis has said "no way" without discussion to only one thing I know about. And that was adding a point value to go with the stats of the hard to find models. I still do not agree with this and never will, oh well. He has listened to arguments and desided to keep a rule he has made, He has listened and changed things as well. He has even came out and said, "wow, I did not agree but you guys have changed my mind". It is the "old guard fan-boys" who have tossed that argument around in the EpicA playtest board. It is others who have used this as a shield to disgise the fact they have no other argument to offer. So let's place blaim where it belongs shall we. Jervis was open to a lot of suggestions, some of the fanboys are not. Jervis did say, I will write the rules and would like to hear how they go. If you look at versions 7 (the first I had) to now there has been some major changes. Many that have come about because of discussions on the playtest board. Even one of Gandalfs favorites, splitfire was in the rules and after some people put up arguments it was taken out. Jervis did listen, maybe not to the people we would have liked him to, but he did listen. I think even Gandalf will agree that the bulk of the attacks he has received are from only a few of the members of the other board and not from Jervis. dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com

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MaksimSmelchak	Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:09 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA	My main intention in becoming an E-A playtester was to MAKE SURE that E-A didn't become a carbon copy of E-40k. I succeeded beyond all my expectations. My big disillusionment with the game came after seeing some truly horrible decisions made, most of which must have been experimental because they have been removed. I can live with the game in its' current guise. I even like it. I really dislike the fact that a small vocal group has greatly changed the Ork army over a nonexistant issue. The Orks keep taking a beating. I don't want them to be as a bland as they were in E-40k. I want the E-A Playtest forums to be an open and friendly place where people can throw out ideas and we can evaluate them without abrasive put-downs. I really don't care if a significant portion of the posts are OT. From my experience with forums and E-groups, that's a healthy and normal thing. The way PG is commenting on others and using his position as moderator to get his "last word" on things is very unattractive to me. I've invested in the boards again and I want to see this change. Whether it's through PG becoming a "kinder gentler person" or another more kind person becoming moderator is no difference to me. What is important is that the boards change. Things are simply wrong at the moment. Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/
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MaksimSmelchak	Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:18 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA	Guys, Let's do our best to keep this thread from degenerating into attacks on Jervis or PG. Feel free to unload both barrels on Gandalf (he deserves it, the punk!) or me (smarmy self-righteous know-it-all Maksim!), but treat those guys with respect whether you feel they deserve it or not. ? Jervis is the guy who designed the rules we love (even if you dislike one or more of the editions). Treat him with the respect he deserves as not only the progenitor of our game, but also the nice and decent guy he is. I've never heard anything but good about him from EVERYONE that's ever met him at a conventions, Games Day, or elsewhere (that Warwick guy is another story... just kidding!). PG, for better or worse, is doing his best to support the game, the same as us, even if he is doing it in a way that many of us disapprove. He's our brother (although maybe a funky estranged one, but then again he may represent our best as well...) and we all have things in common with him. OK. Stepping off the pulpit. LOL ? ? Shalom, Maksim-Smelchak. _________________ 6mm Sci-fi: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/6mm ... nWarGames/ My Personal Blog: http://6mm-minis.blogspot.com/
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Legion 4	Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:27 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Wow!!! I can't remember a topic generating so much banter! But I have to say, one of the reasons I did not get involved in play testing or making comments on the "official" E-A website is, as I have said before, I/we are going play the ("Hybrid") version of the Epic rules we like, regardless. Even using some of the E-A rules we see as "good," I don't want to or can't convince anyone that the rules we play or use are the "best." ? My previous experience as an Infantry Officer ('79-'90) has colored my "take" on what makes a "good" game involving Infantry, AFVs, FA, CAS, etc., etc. (regardless, if some Epic armies have Daemons, Aliens, etc.). There are few men (or women), if any on this site or others, who have lead an Air Assault Rifle Platoon in the jungle, a Mech Infantry Company in the desert or have served in four Infantry Battalions, in a 10 year period. So who cares? ? I really don't care to "argue" with anyone about how the Epic rules reflect indirect fire, CAS, maneuver & fire, etc., etc. ? ? ? So I try to limit my rants, on certain topics, because most have never called in FA, ran a Mechanized Assault, set in an ambush, or whatever... But some will still say this rule or method is "best" for Epic because... (?) However here's my "bottom line", and I've said this (too) many times before, do what works for you and not for me... _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Gandalf the Grey	Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:40 am
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:23 pm Posts: 789 Location: Tampa, Florida	Man, by the time I hit the reply button, I can't remember all the 'freakin' points I planned on relying too. I never felt like I was ever really getting attacked though, but definitely felt like I was dealing with a few morons. Also, I hope no one thinks that I have ever made a personal attack against Jervis, Neal, or Dafrca. If anything though, I ought to be a little pissed at JJ for putting out a few games that I really liked and spent way too much money on. Jimbo may be right about the purpose of the playtest forum (he is the one who said it right?), but it is interesting that there are some things about the other editions that I would have wanted to change, and, hell, our gaming group did change them, but this time around I was really trying to take the best of all the games to put out the best Epic ever. I feel like we have a new Epic, and there are some things that keep it from being awesome to me. Oh well, I have my other games and that won't stop me from playing them with my friends, but I think I just wanted to give something back to the hobby that has given so much to me. I don't mind all the arguing, and really don't feel like I am being attacked (Shat? Is that the best you've got?), but very rarely have I heard someone that said, "Your right, I'm wrong for this reason." I am not just trying to be a "doo-doo head." Can I say "doo-doo head?" (Editor's note: NOPE, you shouldn't say it unless you're referring to donkeys and/or mules!) At any rate, Neal and Dafrca, I know you guys in here and so I do have a higher level of respect for all of you than most people in the other forums, so even if we are arguing I am not really angry at any one of you, nor trying to be offensive. I think you would have seen that by now... Also, someone is a snitch. A day after I mentioned here that I was now Gandalf the White in the Warhammer Society forum, I got kicked out again. LOL. ? Well, it was either that because they read the post where I mentioned that it was me , or when I pointed out that minorities aren't represented in their studio armies except for a guy here and there. Yeah, thats right! GW is racist! ? No, I don't really believe that, but the administrators at the WS are such tight wads, I think they just figured I was gong to start up something. Well, at least the KKK can be rest assured that in the 41st millenium, black people won't be the problem, but orks will be.   ?I kid, I kid! Uhhh... I forgot what else to say... Oh yeah. I won the Mordheim terrain off of Ebay that you've probably seen and for less than $20, it is worth it. I am putting them together now. The buildings are pretty big and look like a bombed out W.W.II for 40k. Very very cool. _________________ Please check out my website: http://www.system17.com
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Gandalf the Grey	Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:12 am
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:23 pm Posts: 789 Location: Tampa, Florida	Hey, I just came up with an idea for splitting fire. Check it out: http://forums.specialist-games.com/epic40k....UM_ID=3 I will be the last time I bring it up if this doesn't work. _________________ Please check out my website: http://www.system17.com
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dafrca	Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:06 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 15 2003 Aug.,22:12) Hey, I just came up with an idea for splitting fire. Check it out: http://forums.specialist-games.com/epic40k....UM_ID=3 I will be the last time I bring it up if this doesn't work. Gandalf, I wish you the best of luck! And just for the record, I have never felt we were at odds. We do not agree on a few things, but that is ok. The world would be a bore if everyone thought like I did. I enjoy the diversity of life. What we both agree with is Epic is a scale and game we enjoy! dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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dafrca	Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:10 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	Quote (Legion 4 @ 15 2003 Aug.,21:27) Wow!!! I can't remember a topic generating so much banter! But you know what I like the most? That regardless of if we agree, disagree, or agree to disagree, we treat each other with respect. I cannot say how rare this is on the net. For people who have such a wide range of beliefs we are a community here. And for that I will allways be grateful! Dafrca. _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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Jimbo

Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:28 am

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:01 pm Posts: 3495 Location: Wessex

Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 16 2003 Aug.,05:40) Jimbo might be right about the purpose of the playtest forum (he is the one who said it right?), well you know me almost always right but it is interesting that there are some things about the other editions that I would have wanted to change, and hell our gaming group did, but this time around I was really trying to take the best of all the games to put out the best Epic ever. the problem with this approach is that what you think is "best" is not what I think is "best" nor is necessarily "best" if of course we can define "best". One of the "best" things about Epic40K for *ME* was the simplicity of the system and how everything was based on strategic detachments rather than individualising units - I had no problems with the fact that all Ork battlewagons (regardless of model) were the same as I felt the Ork detachment was important rather than an individual Bowelburna - my units didn't need to be differentiated within the rules even if the models were differentiated. I know that a lot of Epic players (old and new) do want more differentiated units and think that individualising and adding detail to units is the "best" way of going about this - I don't, we are never going to agree. I feel like we have a new Epic, and they are some things that keep it from being awesome to me.

You can please some of the people all of the time or all of the people some of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time!!!

I will buy Epic A and I will buy the new models, I will probably even play Epic A, but for me it is not the "best" Epic and I don't think there ever will be one for me - unless I write it myself!