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Dropship update!

 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:43 pm 
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The question that comes to mind is,

Are the points cost of the transport aircraft going to be looked at. One thing the JJ was talking about was that transport aircraft would no longer land for a turn. This could in one foul swoop do away with the final turn aircraft manoeuvre to grab/contest objectives.

This could ruin my style of play.

Tim

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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:08 pm 
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My gut reaction is that you need to look for something besides your air transport to snag objectives.

Not sure about point costs.  While they won't have the ability to land, they will undoubtedly have markedly less vulnerability by never becoming ground units.  Heck, most of the air transports are nearly worth their points just as ground-attack craft, and such a change would basically guarantee their use as such for the entire battle.  My guess would be that is just about even, at least enough to leave the points alone to start.

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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:18 pm 
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I realise its a little premature to discuss the possible changes to transport aircraft..

However, I like the idea that aircraft wouldn't be able to claim objectives, it always seemed a bit "gamey" to me.

A question, would the aircraft doing an air-assault still participate in the assault (provide attacks, risk being destroyed etc)?


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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:03 pm 
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Helo-style? ?Heck Yes! (Blackhawk down, anyone?)

I agree that a flying aircraft shouldn't count for claiming objectives (witness the 'sandbox') but landed aircraft (like a Thunderhawk) really should be able to hold ground.

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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:08 pm 
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I'd have to look at the rules again, but I think they are treated like a supporting formation - can't be hit, don't count for outnumber, etc..

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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:49 am 
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Well, let us know, Neal.  We still give the T/hawk, a "skimmer" rating as well.  We see it more like a chopper (ie., Hind-D, as it is both an attack/gunship and assault troop carrier).  :)

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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:29 am 
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Hmm support formation. Well I won't mind that so much. You fly in take BM, but if you are supporting then that doesn't count.

Well I will wait until they are published. I just hope we get a proper chance to comment on them.

I think that I will wait on buying my Orcas for now until I see which way the rules go.

Tim

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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:00 pm 
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I have a suggestion for a new aircraft rules (I know that there is rather little chance of them being adopted, but perhaps it will interest somebody).

Those rules are supposed to resolve the following problems:

a) implausible aircombat, strange positioning of bombers to attack fighters etc.

b) poor scalability, with ground-based anti-air weapons better on a more densely populated board.

c) fighter not being used as interceptors or escorts

d) aircraft sitting landed in Hot LZ, fighting landed in an assault and getting overrun (it irritated me as rather unrealistic).

Proposed rules:

1. I would reintroduce an air phase, as a second phase of a turn, after the Strategy Phase.

2. Remove the AA rating on aircraft weapons. On the board only the ground based anti-air weapons can target aircraft, aircraft cannot target each other.

3. Give aircraft an AA value instead of Firefight value. As someone remarked, aircraft interceptions don't usually happen over the target, so aircraft duels should be conducted off the board. I suggest that they should be conducted according to firefight rules, with all units assumed to be in range of all others. Aircraft should be set in line, and hits should be allocated from left to right.

4. Air phase begins with both players, in secret, (eg behind a screen, or writing on a piece of paper, or with markers etc) allocating missions for their formations.

5. The missions are - Combat Air Patrol, Escort, Ground Attack, Stand Down. Only fighters or fighter bombers can choose Combat Air Patrol or Escort. Player cannot send planes both on escort and combat air patrol missions in the same turn (he cannot have one formation on CAP and second on Escort). Players then roll activations for all planes on CAP or Escort.

5. After rolling activations, players can voluntarily change Ground Attack missions into Stand Down. In that case, formation does not lose all blast markers, as usual, and receives one blast marker after that.

6. If at least one player has planes on CAP, and his opponent has no planes on CAP or Escort, the player with planes on CAP can receives air superiority automatically. If all planes are on ground attack or escort missions, both players can proceed with Ground Attacks unimpeded.

7. If one player has air formation on CAP and the second player has any air formations on CAP or Escort, there is an air combat. All formations on CAP or Escort from both sides fight in one firefight, (as if both were intermingled, or on Combined Attack). All units are assumed to be in range of all others. Aircraft are set in line, formations together, and hits are allocated from left to right. With that exception, conduct firefight as usual, with the loser suffering additional hits for combat resolution etc. (As I suggested above, aircraft should receive AA value insted of Firefight and treated like Firefight. That value would be used in air combat). Air formation cannot be broken, so I would propose that losing formations must be on Stand Down next turn.

8. The winner has air superiority. His ground attack missions can proceed unimpeded. The loser had lost air superiority, and his ground attacks can be attacked (if the winner has any planes on CAP).

9. Each formation of the player who lost air superiority on Ground Attack must be attacked separately. The player with air superiority can assign his remaining formations on CAP as he wishes, all against one formation on ground attack, or one against each, or in some other way. Each attacked formation cannot conduct Ground Attack that turn and must fight instead in a separate firefight according to the above rules. The losing formation must be on Stand Down next turn. (Aircraft with bombs etc dump them when attacked, so that they can manouver freely).

10. All formations that took part in aircombat receive one blast marker (even if they took part in two combats). All formations that took CAP, but not the ones that failed the activation roll, receive additional blast marker (to represent time and fuel lost searching for targets).

11. Those formations on Ground Attack that were not attacked can conduct ground attack according to normal rules. Player who won the strategy roll decides whether heorshe wants to activate hisorher formations first or second etc. After a formation is activated it makes its attack run, then a second formation is activated etc.

12. Ground Attack is conducted according to the present rules. The differences are:

13. Aircraft cannot fire on aircraft.

14. Each ground-based AA weapon can fire only once in a turn. To recompensate this, they get twice the number of shots.

15. Aircraft transporting other formations cannot make a Ground Attack before they land and disembark the units they transport. The plane immediately lifts off and can make ground attack in the same turn.

16. An Aircraft transport which did not disembark a formation can pick up a formation (but not a formation that landed in that turn). In that case it cannot make a ground attack (picking formation up is more time-consuming that dropping it off). Also in that case the aircraft immediately lifts off and leaves the board.

17. AA weapons firing at landing or starting aircraft (in the place where it landed, not before or after) get twice a number of shots (aircraft has to slow down to land and is particularly vulnerable during that operation).

18. Thunderhawks and Landing Craft should be fearless (so that when they lose air combat they are not lost due to assault resolution with  all the transported formations).






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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:00 pm 
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Some of those sound good ... we don't use Air2Air/CAP rules ... only CAS and AAA.  Epic is a ground based game and aircraft should be ancillary, IMO.   :)

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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:12 pm 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 26 2005 July,15:00)
Epic is a ground based game and aircraft should be ancillary, IMO. ? :)

I agree. As far as I'm concerned, the air rules should follow the KISS principle.

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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:24 pm 
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Yes ... Just like FA and Orbital Weapons rules ... creating a "monster" and going down the same road as 40K ... exception vs exception, etc., etc. ...  We use a modified SM1 Off Board system for CAS.  Call in CAS (SM1), CAS gets AAA attack, CAS "jinxs" if hit (rolls jinx save), surviving CAS attacks (using E:A stats) and scatters [BPs] or -1 [AP/AT/MW] if jinxs ... CAS flys off to Rearm and Refit (use E40K Airfield Template) ...  :)

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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:29 pm 
Purestrain
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Hey guys:  I'm not entirely certain how much of this information is considered open for public consumption so I'm only going to give some general info.  These are only concepts being considered and none are done deals.  Again, only speaking in general concepts:

1)  Landing aircraft deleted.  Transports only provide support for the assault.

2)  Ground flak somewhat downgraded in ability to kill aircraft, but better at driving them off.

3)  Interception somewhat improved.

4)  General streamlining of aircraft rules to mirror the mechanics of the "normal" rules more closely.

I have no idea when the version-for-comment is going to be released.  Between the European style long summer vacations at GW and Greg's necessary absence, there has been little progress lately.

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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:43 pm 
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Thanks for the info neal.

Its always good to know where things are heading.

As you say I think that it could be quite some time before we truely get into this discussion, but its always good to talk.

Tim

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 Post subject: Dropship update!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:50 am 
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Look forward to the updated rules ... thanks Neal ! :)

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