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About lists in general

 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:22 am 
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EM, I am not a 'fluff' adict, but as far as I understand it the Marines, Orks and IG are the most generic lists, set loosely in the 40k period (though largely modeled on WWII). The other lists are more specific variants so you may be correct about Seigmasters and Swordwind.

However, as you suggest the real issue is "why do people play?", to which you will get a whole spectrum of answers, and which is really at the heart of the questions you raise. As Neal and other will point out, the whole intention behind the original design philosophy is a bit of light hearted relief or fun, away from the prescriptive rigours of life and summed up by Legion 4 and his phrase "Do What Works For You". Away from more formal competitive settings, the designers actually encourage people to develop their own ideas and styles, which is actually the antithesis of the prescriptive design you are suggesting.

I am not saying you are wrong, quite the opposite. Researching into a series of detailed campaigns and battles can be very enjoyable for some people. But as others (including Morgan Vening) say, given the nature of the GW 'universe' and philosophy, this cannot be the only approach for E:A.

Have you seen (or preferably bought) the "Raiders" supplement yet? If not, I would strongly recommend checking it out here. Now imagine a similar supplement for the campaign / army of your choice. Or perhaps you want to provide some lists for an existing piece of literature or battle, such as the "Taros" campaign etc. IMO this is where a more prescriptive list fits in, and in this format it may well encourage newcomers, providing it is couched within the general E:A philosophy and is not intended to direct it.

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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:30 am 
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The idea that having more generic lists will encourage new players is nonsense.




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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:54 pm 
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Specialized units that do NOT have the restrictions most armies would have for their TO&E's.

Marines are as TO&E'd as everyone else. That was the lesson learned from the Horus Heresy.
The main point would be that exceptionally special support formations are just that, support formations.
The TO&E of most nEA is ridiculous...  :whistle: And with a more sensible (ie something that might actually be out there) list balancing would get easier.

But I'm out of here now. I think my orks need me!  8v)

And I hear you Ginger, I hear you.
(And will hopefully have the Raider shortly...)




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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:28 pm 
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Quote: (Erik M @ 11 Jan. 2009, 21:53 )

And in the competitive society we may find the few that can play less hard and harsh, but still swell our ranks with players.

I'll ask, yet again, for you to explain your premise.

Why do you think added restrictions will bring in players?  Your stock answer is "stability and credibility" but that only begs the question of how such restrictions create stability or credibility?  You haven't answered that question, either.

Everything is based on this premise of yours and that's where the disagreement is.  No one has had an experience which would corroborate your theory and many have cited experiences that directly contradict it.  Until you defend the premise you're not going to convince anyone.

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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:09 am 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 12 Jan. 2009, 14:28 )

Until you defend the premise you're not going to convince anyone.

This deserves to be on a signature!




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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:48 am 
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I'm not sure why people keep talking about added restrictions really.
I am talking about credible force organisations. Some have it, some don't.
And I am talking about something I've quite obviously not grasped, that Epic is thought to be played out in the world as it's played in the head of the creators. I don't think that even the design studio play totally "for the fun of it", I think that they also play to win.
And that is also the mainstay out here on TacCom, playtesting is the word in the internet cables. Which seem to indicate that we out here also don't play it as intended!

Anyhow, what is then I would like to see changed? Actually?
That a lot of the core formations are moved to support. Thus giving each force a more typical look and feel.
For Space Marines this might be to base on tactical.The rest is there to help them out.
Imperial Guard should perhaps have a choice of base companies and the rest as support?
Chaos Space Marines and Tau seem to suffer the same as Space Marines.
Eldar and orks and chaos cults and necron seem to do fine.
I haven't looked at Tyranids and Squats/Demiurg is still out there.

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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:20 pm 
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Jervis did a good job of kicking Marines to the ground in Epic, as revenge for their power and popularity in 40k.

Do they really need more beatings?

Picking Marines for Epic and sticking with them is rare and hard to do due to their weakness, lack of Titan killers, lack of durable units, etc.
If there was further restrictions saying "You must take rubbish formation X in order to take useful formation Y", even less people would bother starting Marines.


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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:08 pm 
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The oft-repeated nonsense about Marines being powerful in 40k anytime post 2nd edition (or mid-3rd at the latest) never fails to amuse me. Never.

As for Epic I started with them and I'm not looking to retire them anytime soon. They're challenging to play but very interesting and fun. I can't stand armies that play themselves (as is the case with most dominant 40k lists).


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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:36 pm 
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As a relatively new player myself, I have to say that I love the current game design/army list concept. I find that it encourages player to come up with army list variants for their own campaigns or scenarios. If anything, I find the Codex/Army Book design in other GW games too restrictive. In my experience, anything that is not a Pitched battle with standard army lists is rarely played. The codex/army book becomes the ONLY way to play the game.

Our gaming group is currently working on/playtesting a Genestealer Cult Uprising campaign with three or four different army list variants and different scenarios in order to simulate such an event and find it to be really fun, encouraged by other campaigns such as the Siege of Mossino and Epic Raiders.

Sure, Marines without Marines can seem odd, but I have never seen such an army in play. And if some army should be able to pick the cherries without restrictions, I find it to be the Adeptus Astartes.

/Fredmans

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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:11 pm 
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fredmasn ~ THAT is the spirit.

If anyone missed it; playing not pitched but scenario driven encounters. And in that these open-ended lists are... perhaps not really needed anyhow. But might kick people's butt to not go "codex grey".

When coming from a milieu of hard list-driven competition it might be hard to see how it could be possible to play 2'000 points for 2 victory points versus 1'000 points for 4 ditto. Or that 3'000 ambushed might be more than enough to beat down 500 ambushers.

The scenario project started by Moscovian is perhaps the mightiest thing that's happened TTG. A gamers community coming up with "unfair but balanced" scenarios, a whole book of them.

And if none noticed, I'm resting my case. Resting. 'Cause neither of us all is right, and if it meanders out in such race it wont benefit us.

So I leave with:

Moscovian ~ Go girl! GO!

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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:16 pm 
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Quote: (Erik M @ 13 Jan. 2009, 19:11 )

The scenario project started by Moscovian is perhaps the mightiest thing that's happened TTG. A gamers community coming up with "unfair but balanced" scenarios, a whole book of them.

Er... not to besmirch Moscovian, but I'm the one who started the scenario project book efforts... I've been co-ordinating with the authors of scenarios that were already published in Fanatic Magazine to use some of their ideas and been doing other development work on it as well.

I'm certainly relying on Bill's "Raiders" publishing experience to get this done though and appreciate any input, suggestions, and submissions for the "Epic: Total War" project.




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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:18 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 13 Jan. 2009, 14:16 )

"Epic: Total War" project.

I like the title.

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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:25 pm 
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My sincere apology Chroma and a totally fair butt on my snot! :_(

The scenario project started by Chroma is perhaps the mightiest thing that's happened TTG. A gamers community coming up with "unfair but balanced" scenarios, a whole book of them.
And then merged with the (just as mighty!) Moscovian carried and community driven endeavour Raiders Publishing NP.

Better?  :whistle:

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 Post subject: About lists in general
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:27 pm 
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Quote: (Dwarf Supreme @ 13 Jan. 2009, 19:18 )

Quote: (Chroma @ 13 Jan. 2009, 14:16 )

"Epic: Total War" project.

I like the title.

Thanks!  *laugh*

Despite its simplicity, it actually took me some time to think of it!  *laugh*

The concepts behind "Epic: Total War" are to provide alternate "generic" scenarios to change the style of fighting, to provide some more structure in setting up campaign play, to provide rules for different battlefield conditions and equipment (See the first draft of army specific minefields here.) and to expand the scope of Epic in a balanced and fun way.

And, again, submissions are WELCOME!




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