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Enabling GW
nealhunt
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:16 pm 
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I do it because I enjoy it.  I would like it better if GW/SG put more support into it, but I still have a good time.

Lots of other companies benefit from my hobbies as well, and none of them give me any "support."  It doesn't bother me that Home Depot benefits when I talk to friends about a really cool gardening tool or tell them how to set up an affordable drip irrigation system.  Home Depot's garden personnel are generally ignorant and the management has no intention of hiring anyone better unless they fall into their collective lap but I still buy from them as long as they have quality stuff.

It does bother me that promises were broken but, hey, that's the commercial world.  Advertisements exaggerate.  Product schedules fall behind.  Lines get canceled.  Even though we have more direct contact with Jervis, Andy, and sundry due to the size of the market, it's still not personal.

As far as the perception that Epic is a dead game, I don't know what to tell you.  Epic in its death throes has more minis available than DRM or Exodus Wars, not to mention the ready availability of them on ebay, bartertown and other secondary markets.  As part of the GW "family" it still has a decent public profile and venues for regular, if not well-attended, events.  It's easier to get a pickup game or recruit people into the 40K-verse than it is to get people into a game from a random, obscure company that no one knows about and which has an unfamiliar fictional setting.

All that adds up to Epic being superior for my needs than DRM or Exodus, regardless of the level of personal or commercial support the company puts out.

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Otterman
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:02 pm 
Although I'm an old guy, E:A was my first introduction to 6mm gaming, and yes, I'm a little torqued that the 'planned' releases of Tyranids, Necrons, etc. never materialized.

It's also annoying that SG isn't considered 'successful' when there's 0% space allocated to it in White Dwarf. Come on, GW dudes. Try a few sample articles for two months and see if the sales tick up.
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Otterman
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:04 pm 

(zombocom @ Apr. 27 2008,12:03)
QUOTE
I enjoy epic as a game, and I'm not going to stop playing it just because you're uppitty about not getting enough "support".

A bit of cultural information here, but 'uppity' is a racially charged adjective in parts of the southern US.

Just sayin'.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:18 pm 
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Zombocom is English, and like me has probably never heard any racist overtones to 'uppity'.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:20 pm 
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(Otterman @ Apr. 28 2008,19:04)
QUOTE

(zombocom @ Apr. 27 2008,12:03)
QUOTE
I enjoy epic as a game, and I'm not going to stop playing it just because you're uppitty about not getting enough "support".

A bit of cultural information here, but 'uppity' is a racially charged adjective in parts of the southern US.

Just sayin'.

I do apologise. I had never heard of any such connotations, and no offense was intended.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:26 pm 
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I support Epic because I like the game. My level of support is completely independent of GW's level if support. Would I like more support for Epic? Of course, but I hardly expect it, nor is it really needed as far as I'm concerned. Given the high quality of work, I'm quite satisfied with fan lists and I don't need require  that "offiicial" tag.

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Mark_Logue
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:27 pm 
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Well this probably isn't going to be a popular opinion but I thought I'd toss it out here in any case.

GW doesn't support Epic properly and all the work you guys do here and on other forums (commendable though it is) simply enables them to do it and still continue to sell figures.

Nothing is going to change at GW if you continue to promote Epic for them and allow them to point to the community support for the game as some sort of a positive influence instead of an indication that GW has abandoned the game.

GW has outsourced promotion of the figures and in some cases development of the game to you guys. And is not giving you a darned thing in return.

Why do you do this? Being a fan is one thing but being used by a company in this manner is quite another. There needs to be a reciprocal exchange for the relationship to be beneficial and in this current relationship GW gives nothing and receives all of the benefit.

GW doesn't provide any support for the game because it is clear that they don't need to in order to sell Epic figs and this situation isn't going to change until the community realises that they are being used and stops enabling GW in this manner.

If they want your support they should give you something in return, and they clearly haven't.

So why continue to help them?


I really don't get any of your points.  People enjoy the game, they enjoy mucking around with the rules, they want to promote a game that they like because they think other people may get some enjoyment out of it as well.

What has any of it to do with enabling GW.  Why should I stop doing something I enjoy because a company is doing something that quite frankly doesn't anoy me.  I enjoy being part of a small community of deticated individuals that work to make a game they enjoy.  I actually like that better than the corporate sort of line on their core games.  I don't care if models aren't available from them I can convert or proxy any miniatures I want.  I enjoy doing that.

Quite simply there are plenty of other games and things that you could do with your time if it doesn't suit you.  There are plenty of games that I don't like for whatever reason.  I don't play them, so what I don't care if other people do or don't.

I actually find it quite frustrating to have constant anti-Epic threads being raised on a forum that I am hoping will promote the game that I enjoy to play.  I am sure you would be happy if you managed to put off some potential players but really what difference would this make to GW who has already sidelined the game anyway.  Its just frustrating for the Epic players out there that have put a huge amount of effort into creating armies that they would be stoked to find new oponents to game against.

You have made your point, you have even convinced me to give Sci-fi commander a go when it is released, but it really does feel that you are taking a pretty harsh stance on everyone that disagrees with you now.  Basically it just feels like flaming and insulting of the Epic community now and I can't really see what constructive things are going to come out of that.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:31 pm 
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Heh. I didn't know that! Uppity has zero such connotations for an Englishman. Will have to remember that given where I live...

I basically agree with Neal. Epic is a product that GW produces. Yes, the level of support is pathetic compared with 40K. But, at the end of the day, if I still enjoy the game despite the lack of support, then who cares? I still like Space Hulk and that doesn't get any support. For that matter, I like Chess too.

Now, why do I do the busywork for GW with regard to the support for the game. Not only because I enjoy it, but it really is quite a rare opportunity for fans of the game. When my codex is revamped, like it or not I'm stuck with it and I have zero opportunity to influence that. In some ways, I like the lack of support. Frankly, if GW would just produce the models and leave the rules to us, we might well have a better game. Of course, the fact that they aren't producing the models is an issue, but that's their problem - we can't buy models that don't exist.
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Otterman
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:53 pm 
I didn't think Zombocom was trying to be offensive, and I bear him no ill will. Just merely attempting to educate.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:58 pm 
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For the record and because I'm an English geek, from OED...

uppity, a.
colloq. (orig. and chiefly U.S.).
Above oneself, self-important, ?jumped-up?; arrogant, haughty, pert, putting on airs.

Racist connotations comes from the phrase "uppity nigger"* which was common parlance for some time.  Like "boy" (historically used to refer to male black servants, regardless of age) it can be used in a racist manner but doesn't automatically have those connotations.


* I'm not blanking out letters or using symbols because that is intended as a factual, historical statement.  That's not intended to condone use of the term in any way.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:05 pm 
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Aye, I went and tapped 'uppity' and 'racist' into Google and got an article about someone calling Barak Obama 'uppity', and connected the dots from there.

I'm not blanking out letters


That's one of my personal bugbears ; I reckon that blanking out letters in the manner you suggest is simply hypocritical... either speak / type such language or don't... blanking out letters in a tittilating yet obvious manner just irritates me.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:21 pm 
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To take it one step further... into knowledge:

uppity

1880, from up; originally used by blacks of other blacks felt to be too self-assertive (first recorded use is in "Uncle Remus"). The parallel British variant uppish (1678) originally meant "lavish;" the sense of "conceited, arrogant" being first recorded 1734.
Online Etymology Dictionary, ? 2001 Douglas Harper

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:53 pm 
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pedantic

-Like a pedant, overly concerned with formal rules and trivial points of learning.
-Being showy of one?s knowledge, often in a boring manner.
-Often used to describe a person who emphasizes his/her knowledge through the use of vocabulary; ostentatious in one?s learning.
-Being finicky or picky with language.
-Obsessive insistence or sureness that things or persons will or do conform to words exactly as they have been written.
Wiktionary

:p
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Enabling GW
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:16 pm 
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Heh.

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