Kyuss: I think you're missing the part where an aircraft can end outside of range of the hydra, but still be shot at.
the AA rules say that weapons with an AA value may fire at aircraft that end their move outside of range if they were in range during the approach (so you can fly through a bubble, end outside and still be shot)
the problem is that the rules for supression are not covered by special circumstances, so they apply to final position, not intervening position. the rules for shooting at aircraft if they were ever in range applies only to AA weapons, which means that other weapons are supressed by range normally

It does mean that supression on disengage moves is impossible to work out, since as you say, its end position is unknown

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okay so in diagram 2, the left hand hydra will shoot the plane, but the right will not as it's suppressed, correct?

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JTG, Suppression on disengagement is covered - the disengagement move ends at the table edge, and that position is used for resolving AA firing. I agree the question on the suppression process is a little less clear as it can be read either way, hence the suggestion of an FAQ.

And for Kyuss, AFAIK the range for suppression under AA fire is measured during the a/c movement in the same way that Flak ranges are measured. So any unit is *eligible* for suppression if the A/c flew through its arc of fire in exactly the same way that an AA unit is *eligible* for AA fire.

Thus if the gap between the two Helhounds at the top of the diagram is <20cm, they would both be eligible for suppression, otherwise the A/c could fly to ensure that at least one AA is supressed - even though the final position of the A/c is >20cm from both Hellhound units.

nope, as written, only weapons with an AA value can fire at aircraft mid move. supression with normal units acting as a buffer only applies relating to final position. thats the main contention of the rules discussion here, as to when the supression should be considered, and what problems are caused by each option

ok
here's a diagram i drew showing aircraft in various positions (not shown is aircraft F, who continues on his path and ends 90cm away from the hunter)


Example 1: Hunter formation has 2 BM
Aircraft A cannot be be shot at. It is within range of the hunter, but is not within range of any other model in the formation. As such, supression begins at the hunter
Aircraft B is within range of several units, it can be shot at, as the backmost marine unit is supressed, even though it cannot actively shoot the aircraft
Aircraft C is within range of all units, but it cannot be shot at, because it is closer to all other units than the hunter, so the hunter is supressed. In this example, if the aircraft shot at the formation, it would resolve its hits against the hunter first, because on its approach move, the hunter was the closest model
Aircraft D is within range of all units, but again, the hunter is the furthest away and thus is supressed
Aircraft E is within range of the hunter only, but again, the hunter is the furthest away and cannot shoot
Aircraft F is no longer within range of anything, but the hunter was in range at some point. Of course, it cannot shoot, because it is supressed

Example 2: the dotted outline is an extra unit in the formation: Hunter formation still has 2 BM
Aircraft A cannot be be shot at. It is within range of the hunter, but is not within range of any other model in the formation. As such, supression begins at the hunter.
Aircraft B is within range of several units, it can be shot at, as the backmost marine unit is supressed, even though it cannot actively shoot the aircraft
Aircraft C is within range of all units, it can be shot at, because the furthest unit away is nte new marine unit .In this example, if the aircraft shot at the formation, it would resolve its hits against the new marine unit first, then the hunter second
Aircraft D is within range of all units, the marine unit is the furthest away and thus is supressed and so the hunter can shoot
Aircraft E is within range of the hunter only, so hunter is supressed
Aircraft F is no longer within range of anything, but the hunter was in range at some point. Of course, it cannot shoot, because it is supressed

Example 3: the formation does not have any blast markers
all aircraf can be shot at, as they either are, or were, within range of the hunter during their move and the hunter is not supressed in any situation, even aircraft F, which is no longer in range of the hunter, was at one point, so it can be shot at with impunity

will also add that in all these examples, aircraft D onwards cannot shoot at the hunter formation, because it is no longer in its fire arc/range. aircraft A is unlikely to be in range either.

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So the moral of the story seems to be 'surround your AA unit with long-range units on all sides'?

A fat lot of good that's going to do my Death Guard Retinues where the Defiler is the longest range gun in the whole formation...

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IJW: again, in those situations, the flak bubble when supressed drops to the range of the surrounding units. This is, to some extents, a design feature i expect. (aircraft that "stop" closer to flak are more vulnerable than those that skirt the edge of the bubble) but it's not a very good one, as covered by the "fly straight through and end in safe spot, become invincible" silliness

i think the actual moral is some combination of "the aircraft rules have problems" and "take aircraft and ground flak if you want to deal with enemy aircraft"

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I like how we play it better it's only slightly different

RAW the rules are an ass

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Which is exactly my point - if the rest of the formation has small arms the AA bubble is effectively 15cm from the furthest part of the formation. I've been tending to add in DG Havocs anyway but it now becomes almost worthless adding a Defiler unless the formation also has Havocs or similar.

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well no, it just means they're easily supressed.
1 BM drops the range to "15cms from the edge of the formation" (which suggests, spread out, can still be a quite sizable area)
2 BM is unlikely to drop the range further though
try playing necrons, where your only AA capable unit is a 200 point immovable unit that breaks on 2 BM and is thus in most ways, more supressable than your defiler...

also, if the rule was changed so that you measure supression range at any point in the movement, that would still mean that the bubble was still effectively "15cm from the edge of the formation" it just doesnt apply to final position only anymore

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try a plague tower instead, 90cm guns will sort you out

I find this has been an issue in the past with guard infantry companies with a single hydra (and no chimeras) approach from the right direction and it can't flak if the fm has a blast marker

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JTG - it's not 15cm from any edge of the formation, it's 15cm from whatever stand is closest 'behind' the Defiler. In practice you're looking at 10cm or so range from the Defiler.

Kyuss - having finally used a Plague Tower on Saturday they're great, but fixed forward arc on all the guns means it's pretty easily avoided for these purposes.

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to be honest, units with short range or no shooting attacks and a single AA unit are always going to suffer under any rules, the EUK method would only help your defiler unit if the plane flew within 10cm of the unit so a stand further away could take suppression

I think the way it tends to be played at EUK tournaments is that units can flak if they are unsuppressed at any point of the aircraft's approach move, so in my first example above, the plane *would* be shot by the hydra as a russ behind could take the suppression

overall it's a pretty minor difference IMO

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And this is the only point we disagree on, though it is quite a significant one.
The air rules adapt the earlier rules on firing in 1.9.2, which says you need Range and LoS. Since the AA rule stipulate that the "range" is calculated *during* the aircraft movement, this must apply to all ground units, not just those armed with AA weapons. Otherwise it is all too easy to supress all AA fire simply by moving out of range of any other potentially 'suppressible' unit.

Not sure I agree with you here. I cannot recollect anyone playing like that - which is why there is usually great care taken over where an A/c can or can't be positioned to ensure that the AA actually is supressed.

Which has happened quite often so far. It's surprisingly hard to avoid several 22.5cm bubbles during any part of your move, compared to just ending your move outside 10cm...

Locally I think we'll stick with all measurements being done during the move instead of some during and some after.

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