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dafrca	Post subject: Ordinatus! Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:37 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	Quote (Jimbo @ 15 2003 Aug.,13:25) Therefore play-testing by committee (or forum) is doomed unless you state quite clearly what the criteria for play-testing is. I felt that Jervis did indeed do this in the way he said these are my rules and I not interested in changing the basic crux of the rules just check that they work well. Some people mis-interpreted the fact that a forum meant they could support the development of the rules - I don't believe that this was the case! Jimbo, I agree with you on this. Some people seem to have thought they were going to get to "rewrite" the rules to be what they wanted. Some people seemed to become disillusioned when Jervis did not make changes they felt should be made. That anyone who did not agree did not understand what a good rule/game was. Some went so far as to say anyone who disagreed was just ignorant or stubborn; because of course their idea was right. IMO, those people did not want to hear the clear criteria for play-testing that was given to use from the beginning. When I joined the playtest it was made clear we were invited to try out Jervis? rules and offer some feedback. It was very clear to me that my influence might be small or none depending on how things went. It was clear I was testing, not writing, the rules. I was very pleased at the number of times Jervis made adjustments or took an idea and ran with it. Looking back over the last year there have been times Jervis did what we, the playtesters ask for and there have been quite a few times where he politely said ?no thanks?. As a playtester I can name at least five or six issues where, after presenting examples and feedback to Jervis, he changed his mind and made changes in the rules. In some cases I was on the side of the change and sometimes I did not agree. So I did not always get ?my way?, but in each case I came away impressed that Jervis was open to a well thought out ?argument? and would give it some thought. Because of this, I am happy to say I had a hand in the outcome. Even in the issues I did not get my way on, I felt he listened. If he took the time to send me back an email outlining why he was not going to go my way, that shows he respected my opinion but just did not agree. They are no longer just Jervis? rules. They have become our rules now. Yes, his overall vision drove most of the rules. Yes, he may have had final say. But it is, as far as I could have hoped for, a successful play-test by committee. I do not agree with every rule still, but I do believe we did have an influence. dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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nealhunt	Post subject: Ordinatus! Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:54 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	And you try to claim I say things better than you, Dafrca. Whatever! Well said. _________________ Neal
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dafrca	Post subject: Ordinatus! Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:33 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	Quote (nealhunt @ 15 2003 Aug.,14:54) And you try to claim I say things better than you, dafrca. ?Whatever. Well said. Why thank you. ? dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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primarch

Post subject: Ordinatus! Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 12:54 am

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi! So Neal, that's why I raise the arguements.  I want to hear a REALLY good reason why we can't do things.  So far, "because Jervis wants too" is not good enough for me.  I doubt he's even playtested enough himself.  He's running a business! I think he's got a lot of theories and waits to see how they are tested by us. Well you pretty much summed up my position as well. If he wanted feedback on "his" way of doing this and then was questioned/challenged on it and his only answer is "because I dont want to", then IMO, why ask for feedback at all? In that case just design the rules like GW always does and release when your done. If you ask for an opinion you must be prepared for a positive response or a negative one. If you are only willing to hear positive ones and dismiss the negative, then you aren't "really" asking for an opinion, just agreement with your original premise. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules

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primarch

Post subject: Ordinatus! Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 1:10 am

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi! The other aspect is that play-testing by committee was a flawed approach to begin with. Would anyone be shocked if I said I agreed with this statement fully? It would be odd that the coordinator of net epic, by definition a rules system BUILT by committee would agree with this, but Jimbo is absolutely right. Game design by committe is not only flawed but a NIGHTMARE. It has been well known to me that net epic would run smoother, easier and save LOADS of work if I eliminated direct particiaption and have a small group do all the designing and playtesting and just present the finished product. Of course that would take the "net" out of net epic. I have even mentioned this openly on the list. But the truth is net epic member seem pleased with the results of design by committee and thus it shall remain. But for Epic A this approach should NOT have been used and I said as much when it was clear that would be the format. In may be great in the "perceptions" realm, of being open and caring of players opinions, but its a logistical nightmare. I felt that Jervis did indeed do this in the way he said these are my rules and I not interested in changing the basic crux of the rules just check that they work well. Some people mis-interpreted the fact that a forum meant they could support the development of the rules - I don't believe that this was the case!

Again I agree, this is why I I never bothered to contribute or let my opinions known on epic A on those forums. He stated in the epic magazine that the new epic game would start from the "basic" design of epic40k and that according to his philosophy he would add things which made the game go in a direction he envisioned. Therefore from the very beginning he was clear on where the rules were started and where he was going. So accordingly I ignore epic A because I DONT agree with that premise, but its incorrect to say Jervis didn't state it up front.


I got the feeling that the focus of the boards became number of posts rather than constructive criticism


I beleive this to be a truth that cannot be easily refuted.

Primarch