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New Experimental Rules

 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:31 pm 
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One of the real issues that JJ and the SG team does not want to acknowledge is that despite their saying the rule book is for all games, they base most, if not all of their decisions on tournament play. :L

JJ would not add points to the ?use as? list because he said the points were for tournament rules and should not be used for other ?for fun? games and scenarios. Then they change things just because there is a loop hole in the points or the tournament formations?  ???

The other issue I think driving these changes is there is a very vocal minority of players on the forum that keep pressing their agenda and over time JJ is effected by their constant posting and crying. :{

OK, I will get off my soap box now.   :blush:

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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:33 pm 
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Hehe the rules are just 'experimental' at this stage so I wouldn't worry too much.  

I want that assault problem fixed, but I don't even really understand why they are bothering on the other issues.  
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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:46 am 
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To be fair, the barrage table has been abusable for a while now. The new table is much fairer, in that you can either do a lot of suppressive fire in a small area, or a dispersed barrage that can cause some kills over a wide area, but lacks hitting power.


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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:09 am 
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Yes, that's true about the barrage table serps. I guess it just hasn't worried me as much as the assault rule problem so far.

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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:13 am 
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Quote (Markconz @ 12 2004 Sep.,22:09)
Yes, that's true about the barrage table serps. I guess it just hasn't worried me as much as the assault rule problem so far.

Interesting, because of all the "experiments" I am the most woried about it is the assault rules that seem headed down a "major rules creep and complication" path.  :{

Yes, there may be a loop hole that needs closing, but I wish they could fix it with simple tweeks not revamping the whole system of assaulting.  ???

Oh well, we shall see, eh?

dafrca

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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:44 am 
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Quote (dafrca @ 13 2004 Sep.,07:13)
Yes, there may be a loop hole that needs closing, but I wish they could fix it with simple tweeks not revamping the whole system of assaulting. ????

Agreed, I wish I could think of a 'simple tweek' that would fix the problem though  :;):  I feel the same way about the barrage table...

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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:56 am 
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well, this is not "rule change yet", those are proposed revisions of what seemed to cause problems (and what didn't, it apperas, in the case of the ork light vehicules) for the first rule review. As such, it will be playtested for at least 6 month. Anyway, Jervis told us, month before the game release, that there willbe rule review each year, like for any other Specialist game. Some of the items now reviewed, like the barage table, were intended to be from the beggining, since player said it was to be tuned from the beggining. there just wasn't enough time before the release, and as "rules are never really set in stone", other stuff have appeared in the first 6 month.

The hit allocation procedure is certainly one of those. On the playtest forum, questions about it appear about 2 or 3 times a week.
And there certainly was some rule glitch that are now solved by the proposition. (notably in assault, were an attacking single infantry in a single transport could lead to strange situations).
Now, i don't think screening is a good thing, and i don't think the new rules are final one (i certainly hope they ain't !). but i know some of those changes are needed (the hit allocation rule, or at least its wording, the barrage table, and the way assault support work). Now, getting good rules about it are what playtest is all about.
the main constructive way to critisize it is to build your arguments pro or cons and send them to Jervis or post on the playtest forum.

making those changes public expose them to the rigours of public bitc - hem, playtesting, and you can be sure in the end the rule will take in account every point of view and end up balanced. that's how E:A became a good (i'd say "great") game in the first place.

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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:56 pm 
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Quote (Athmos @ 13 2004 Sep.,00:56)
making those changes public expose them to the rigours of public bitc - hem, playtesting, and you can be sure in the end the rule will take in account every point of view and end up balanced. that's how E:A became a good (i'd say "great") game in the first place.

Athmos

Athmos,

As one of the early playtesters I can tell you that throwing the playtest open to the public has only helped increase the level of bitching vs. true playtesting.

Some of the most vocal "playtesters" have admited to not playing for lack of others to play with. So without even one game played they have attacked rules as "broken" or armies as "weak" or "too powerful". ?:L

Yes, Jervis said rules would be reviewed, he also said he would not return to the basic rules until all of the basic army lists were done. ?:o

I do not want to sound as if I am against rule review or playtest, but I am against rules creep and constant rules adjustment just because a couple of people post many times asking for a change to help their favorite armies.

Anyway, I will get off the soap box now.

dafrca

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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:14 pm 
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Quote (dafrca @ 13 2004 Sep.,14:56)
As one of the early playtesters I can tell you that throwing the playtest open to the public has only helped increase the level of bitching vs. true playtesting.

dafrca

hear, hear. And i remember your contribs more than a year ago, just as i understand why you've stepped back at some point.

Neverthelees, i think so far, Jervis managed to listen those who should be listened, and filtered the input quite well.
I think he look for the real arguments pro and cons, and won't be too easily influenced by the simple bitching/whinning/etc...

I would think most GW designer are pretty used to hear such things, and still know how to make games (and when they don't have to compose too much with the marketing guys, i think they do make good games indeed).

what i meant here was most of the proposed changes were understandable. The barage table certainly have some problem (notably a huge gap between 3 and 4 BP, and some other glitches), and as i said, the hit allocation procedure would both need a better wording and some minor fixes (i'd personally only go for a "layered" hit resolution, as i proposed some months ago on the playtest forum as a solution for some stranges glitches in assault). Now, i prefer Jervis post this now and allow for those changes to be tested properly, rather than publishing it at the last momment (that's how the Barrage table got printed with the obvious 3/4BP glitch in the first place).

And i'm afraid when he said "no rule change before all base armies are done", he was thinking about the armies in the book (IG, SM, Orks). I'm eager to see the others too (particularily the nids in my case), but well, some fixes every year doesn't sound like a bad idea.
I don't think setting the rule in stone once and for all necessarily make those rules better.

Now, maybe it's just one of those "Point of view" matter ?

Athmos


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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:50 pm 
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All that being said ... E:A, IMO, is the best iteration of Epic yet.  There still may be some "fine tuning" to suit personal tastes ... :)

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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:45 pm 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 13 2004 Sep.,07:50)
All that being said ... E:A, IMO, is the best iteration of Epic yet. ?There still may be some "fine tuning" to suit personal tastes ... :)

L4, you are just too cool.  :cool:

I have to say, I like this set of rules very much. I also have to say I can not imagine doing something like this myself, so I respect Jervis and also those who keep netepic going. Lots of work by some very dedicated people.

dafrca

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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:24 am 
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I agree with dafrca; playtest army lists are needed.

However, if the rules changes are needed, which it looks like they are for the barage table, then maybe it is a good idea to get them working correctly before any 'final' army lists are released?


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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:01 am 
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Quote (Serps @ 13 2004 Sep.,16:24)
However, if the rules changes are needed, which it looks like they are for the barage table, then maybe it is a good idea to get them working correctly before any 'final' army lists are released?

To the best of my knowledge these rules are being released now to try and fix some issues before the Eldar and Tau are finalised because these two armies not only exploit the issues the most but will be more effected by them (IMO) than any other army currently available.

So I don't think this is really part of the upcoming rules review but more of a patch for some issues that need to be addressed.

Especially the "token assault" issue and skimmers

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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:25 pm 
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I try Daf, I try ... :cool: :D :;):

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 Post subject: New Experimental Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:52 pm 
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Quote (pixelgeek @ 13 2004 Sep.,23:01)
Quote (Serps @ 13 2004 Sep.,16:24)
However, if the rules changes are needed, which it looks like they are for the barage table, then maybe it is a good idea to get them working correctly before any 'final' army lists are released?

To the best of my knowledge these rules are being released now to try and fix some issues before the Eldar and Tau are finalised because these two armies not only exploit the issues the most but will be more effected by them (IMO) than any other army currently available.

So I don't think this is really part of the upcoming rules review but more of a patch for some issues that need to be addressed.

Especially the "token assault" issue and skimmers

good point Pixel. I guess it is something time will tell.  :)

dafrca

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