Arty Power in E-A Playtest Rules? - Discussion |
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Arty Power in E-A Playtest Rules? - Discussion  Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 3:58 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Well when I said, they were well read, I was being magnanimous  !!!
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Arty Power in E-A Playtest Rules? - Discussion Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 4:07 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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>> OK, you need some great evil to sweep the world, an Inquisition could be that evil. |
I agree. ?I liked the fact that the Empire suffered from the same horrid oppressive conditions as Dark Ages Europe. ?I have been disppointed at the "lightening" of the atmosphere.
>> But to make them the "good guys" and leave in the massmurder, intolerance, and assasinations. |
Are they presented as the good guys? I'm asking because I haven't read any of the new background stuff. Given the trend to less dark or questionable background, I can certainly believe they were presented that way.
In the older material, I seem to recall Inquisitors were universally feared. Even Marine Captains would bend after a few not-so-subtle phrases questioning their loyalty. They were fanatical, loyalist, uncompromising uber-fascists who felt justified in destroying entire planets rather than suffer a demonic cult to exist.
They would make good anti-heroes as the older version. There is something in the human psyche that is drawn to absolutes like that. Examples abound in politics and literature.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Arty Power in E-A Playtest Rules? - Discussion Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 4:21 pm |
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The difference between the Imperium and Chaos is like Hitler and Stalin or maybe Mao.
With evil vs. evil it's easier to justify Total War, fought by rabid fanatics.
But for the most part, when you're playing the game, it's more about tactics and techniques than fluff, at least in my mind.
Yanks, Limeys, Krauts, Nips or Orks, Eldar, Tau & Bugs, it's all the same.  ?
Just roll the dice!?
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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dafrca
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Post subject: Arty Power in E-A Playtest Rules? - Discussion Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 4:36 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 02 2003 July,08:07) | >> But to make them the "good guys" and leave in the massmurder, intolerance, and assasinations.
Are they presented as the good guys? ?I'm asking because I haven't read any of the new background stuff. ?Given the trend to less dark or questionable background, I can certainly believe they were presented that way. |
Neal,
You have raised a good point. Maybe I see them as being treated more as heroes because I have been around for so long. I wonder how someone who is just entering the whole GW/40k thing sees things. I may be making too many assumptions.
Dafrca
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: Arty Power in E-A Playtest Rules? - Discussion Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:05 pm |
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Borrowing Historical Themes vs. Borrowing History Outright!
Here is why I do not feel sorry for them. The point for me is not that they have an Abe Lincoln or a John Paul in their background. I agree names are often used that are real names. It is the next step they take that I do not like. Abe Lincoln is the leader of their world and John Paul is the leader of their fictional church.
I do not have an issue that the borrow a small part of History to help with their background. It is the massive amounts of the negative parts of history combined together and presented in a heroic light that is the real issue for me.
The examples Maksim used are good ones because they hit the same button for me. OK, you need some great evil to sweep the world, an Inquisition could be that evil. But to make them the "good guys" and leave in the massmurder, intolerance, and assasinations. Then sell this twisted reflection of real history to 10 to 15 year olds who will not know any better? |
Dafrca certainly understood where I'm coming from. I understand Tuffskull's aside that it's hard not to have similar details to real events, but it IS possible and even manageable for talented and capable fiction writers.
I think the biggest difference between shoddy unrespsible work and a work of art is how much they borrow from historical "reality." Borrowing a historical theme is almost inevitable. The Greeks after all codified much of the complexity of human interaction into their theatre system and their mythology is nothing, but amazing. Authors today like David Drake borrow heavily from Greek and roman mythology among other mythologies such as Norse mythology.
The Jews provided an ethical system that is amazing, the Talmud is a system by which to classify any action and determine whether it is ethical. I'd much rather see an Empire with a truly good king (or at least one that has some kind of positive character) and specified goals rather than a dead vampire psychopath with fanatical followers. Almost all authors in the "West" use modified Judeo-Christian ethics in their writing.
?
Under my argument so far, I'm spelling out that it's nearly impossible to completely avoid history because history is humanity. It's who we are. What can be avoided however is the same details and mistakes that have already been made. Comparisons are fine, but rote recitation of detail isn't. I want new names and new situations. Granted that much of GW's rgurgitated history is new to their target audience of very yung people, but for us older folks, we want something of lasting value. Explore something new and, yes, I do expect quality entertainment if I'm both paying for and supporting it.
However, essentially, I don't really have a problem with GW openly borrowing history as long as they don't choose to reppeat the same sorry mistakes that I don't want to see repeated in history like the Inquisition or the Holocaust. Don't forget the past, but, for the Lord's sake, don't repeat the worst of it, please! ?
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Arty Power in E-A Playtest Rules? - Discussion Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:04 pm |
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Well literature, movies etc. are full of reccuring themes from the Greek tragedies, English literature, legends, myths etc. ?Good vs. Evil is generally universal. ?After WWII, the Western World said, never again. And because of this my "Battle Brothers" are, along with many other counties' forces, deployed around the world. Epic has lightened up it's take on the dark future of man, but as I said before, when playing the game the "fluff" means little ... 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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dafrca
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Post subject: Arty Power in E-A Playtest Rules? - Discussion Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:30 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 07 2003 July,10:45) | Back to the actual topic...
Does anyone think maybe the newer rules have gone too far? ?I was thinking about the amount of damage an IG arty company can actually do and it is amazing.
With 8 Bombards and 1 Basilisk, you can fire 13 BP - 3 templates, +2 BM, 3+/4+ to hit - every turn. ?That's pretty darn stout. |
It sure sound impressive. In game it is much less so. I used two such formations:
3 Bombards ( 3 x 3BPs each) for 9 BPs
6 Basilisks (6x1BP each) for 6 BPs
total of 15 BPs
I had 11 units under the first set of three templates. I hit 9 (better then average). Of those 9 units 6 saved (this included reinforced armour saves). So I got three units. Now I can not fire until turn three with 3 of these. ?So what did my 650 point unit do? It killed three gaunt stands.
No I do not think the new rules have gone too far. But I would not want to see them go any further either. It is at a good point. When the dice are nice it is very deadly, when the dice are not nice it isn't but on average it is not the uber-formation from many versions back.
dafrca
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dafrca
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Post subject: Arty Power in E-A Playtest Rules? - Discussion Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:03 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 07 2003 July,11:52) | | Dafrca: ?[You must have edited out the bit I initially replied to] |
Yes, I caught my stupidity right after I hit sent. ?
Thought I had corrected it before anyone saw I was dorking it. ?
| Quote (nealhunt @ 07 2003 July,11:52) |
While killing 3 gaunts is pretty sad, against any other opponent that also would have dropped 6 BM. |
True, and that is "harsh" but I do not believe it is "too far". I'll watch our other games this next weekend as we have three IG players and all three use Artillery.
dafrca
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"Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Arty Power in E-A Playtest Rules? - Discussion Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:57 pm |
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That's another G/W "birth defect", giving the IG TOO much FA and then giving the other armies very little.
By using SM1 rules as we do, you have to spot the target, call it in and roll to see if it scatters.
As I said before, it appeared G/W took the easy way out and simplified FA. However It appeared weak enough to me in E-A that it would not be a game stopper.
I could be wrong? ?
However, the close combat rules are quite detailed, you'd think you were playing WHFB! ?
If the game design is flawed, FA will dominate the board and not be much of a game, IMO. It appears to me now this needs to be fixed, if you are going to play E-A as is? ?
But I still laud his attempt at simplifying such a critical part of modern warfare, however, it appears he missed the point.  ?
Again...
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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