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Gandalf the Grey
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Post subject: Transport Question  Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 3:04 pm |
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Don't worry about offending anyone Legion, what must be said must be said. Unfortunately, Jervis has never served in combat, although he has designed a lot of games, and I think is set in his ways on what makes a more skillful game. I think the more choices a player can make opens the possibilities to make the game far more interesting than to limit him.
You are right about the G/W rules having a predilection for 18th century sword and bayonet fighting. I have never heard even the biggest 40k fan say they love the rules. In the end, the players love the minis and will play with whatever rules GW publishes, just like you have your hardcore Epic Fans. People just love playing in this scale, and I am one of them. I guess I'll play EpicA if another player wants too, but I'll be honest, there has to be a reason why I still realy hold on to my original Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus set. I really believe that if morale had been done a little differently, lets say, like it was in SM/TL, then I would think it is the best game of all time.
Which reminds me. I know GW never published extended rules for the Eldar covering the aspect warriors they released in the Warhost Box Set, and was wondering if there had been any attempt by players to make their own? Anyone know?
Oh sh*t, I am late for work!
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 4:32 pm |
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 4:40 pm |
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I agree with you on all your points Gandalf, ?the minis sell the games, not the other way around. I still feel SM1/AT1 was my favorite set of rules, although it needed some fine tuning. So many of our "hybrid" rules are based on those. ?We still use the Organization Templates (TO&Es) for most armies. ?Jervis did (and does) his homework, but there is an obvious difference from reading about it and doing it. ?Many times he & G/W design rules to my liking.?So again I don't mean to be too critical. ?However besides the scale of Epic appeals to me a lot more then 40K, the rules for 40K are not what I look for in Wargame. ? Close Combat is deadlier than automatic weapons fire ? ?I don't think so, not even in the year 40,0000  !!! ? As far as the Eldar Aspects, we use a lot of the SM2 rules with some modifications and I believe NetEpic has some rules for those too. ? Thanks Gandalf, I'm glad I'm not too far off in my comments. ?I don't want to be labeled a Heretic ! ?
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Gandalf the Grey
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 6:44 pm |
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Not Epic40k Legion, the original Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus rules. They were made for Space Mariens, Imperial Guard, Orks, Squats, and Chaos, but they didn't release any rules for the Eldar athough they made the minis for them. I was wondering if anyone through something together for them way back. . .
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 7:03 pm |
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Not to rain on the parade, but the "18th century" close combat stuff is in there because it is heroic. ?After all, part of the fun of the game is the escapism. ?People want to be heroes, especially gamers. ?There is just something more dynamic about the blood-and-guts, in-your-face close combat stuff than having a sniper sit back and pick off enemy soldiers.
For the record, I was in the Marine Corps infantry for 6 years, even serving as a weapons platoon commander while enlisted. ?I completely understand your points on the realism side.
It's the "unreal" parts of the game make it exciting for the vast majority of their target audience. ?GW markets to adolescent boys for the most part, while seasoned grognards that cut their teeth on Squad Leader, i.e. most of us on here, are significantly lower on their desired customer list.
I feel like I'm becoming the "slavering fanboy" of the forums here recently. It's not that I don't agree that some of the complaints are valid, just that I recognize GW's persepctive when it comes to the business side. I think, perhaps, we just need to come to grips with the fact that what we think makes a game cool is not necessarily what will sell, especially to GW's target demographic.
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Neal
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Gandalf the Grey
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 7:36 pm |
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Neal! Your FIRED!
Just kidding. You are right on many points, but I think the older gamers spend more money than the younger ones. Hey, I am only 30 so why am I being so hard on myself? ?
Hahaha 
ANYWAY, GW still produces excellent minis and whatnot, but maybe we just feel cheated as we've been with them all these years while they have expanded, taught people how to play their games, and when the time came to help out with one of our favorites, we felt kind of ignored. I think this is all coming out in another thread I just replied to on Max's Woe be da Orks! But I see your points.
I would prefer though, if I could just say, "THEY WILL DO WHAT I SAY, OR THEY WILL PERISH. . ." 
Dude, this guy rocks! I'm gonna find a way to use him on all of my posts.
See ya.
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Tas
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 2:17 am |
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>Not to rain on the parade, but the "18th century" close >combat stuff is in there because it is heroic. After all, part >of the fun of the game is the escapism.
Absoluelty, hence my earlier comments about warGAMES vice War simulations.
Same as the fact that we try to balance scenarios, when every general is trying to make every scenario as unbalnced (in his favour) as is possible to as near as possible pre-determine his victory
>I recognize GW's persepctive when it comes to the business >side
Which is a reality check for all of us, becasue all we want is the perfect fun, and can easily forget that at the end of the day this income pays people's bills and puts food ont he table.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 6:07 am |
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Wow, I go to work and I miss out on all the Fun !!! ?Well where do I start ? ?Gandalf, got your PM, but had to go to work so I could afford E-A, and thank you. ?Cybershadow posted the link to Eldar Aspects for E40K, we use modified SM2 rules and as I said NetEpic rules may be worth a a look. ?Primarch, anyone can call me anything but late for pay day !!! ? Tas & Neal, I get the Heroic bit, SM1 even had heroic action rules, we like them and use them. (And AH's Squad Leader was a pretty good game!) ?I guess I just get satisfaction from taking out a target at range. ? ?And bottom line G/W needs to make profits (I have a couple of business degrees, hanging around here somewhere  ). ? So I'm going to do what I have been doing with all Epic, buy the games and models, play "heretic hybrid" rules we like. And save a little $ for Kitty on the weekends ...  ?Good discussion Guys ! ?I'm going to check out the "Woe be da Orks" topic !
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Jimbo
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 9:13 am |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 06 2003 May,19:03) | | I feel like I'm becoming the "slavering fanboy" of the forums here recently. ? |
ah ha someone else to take my place
phew
It's not that I don't agree that some of the complaints are valid, just that I recognize GW's persepctive when it comes to the business side. |
as an ex-business studies/economics teacher I know what you mean.
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Jimbo
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 9:18 am |
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| Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 06 2003 May,19:36) | | Just kidding. You are right on many points, but I think the older gamers spend more money than the younger ones. |
you would have thought so, wouldn't you
of course there are exceptions, there are gamers out there who have no problem with spending three hundred pounds on a Thunderhawk, but even amongst older gamers they are a very small minority
most of GW's core market (adolescent teenagers) have more spending power than your average older gamer (and their parents do as well).
What that means, is that the younger gamers will spend more than the older gamers and that it makes more of GWs income - compare the core games of WHFB and WH40K against the Fanatic (read older gamer) products in terms of income.
One of the reasons for this is if you compare Warhammer 40K to say a video games console and a few games, WH40K comes in a lot cheaper...
I now spend less on gaming now then I did when I was a spotty teenager both in actual, real and proportionate terms._________________ Jimbo
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 3:37 pm |
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Legion4>> I guess I just get satisfaction from taking out a target at range.
Heh. As a former heavy weapons guy, I agree whole-heartedly. There's just nothing like that feeling of unleashing destructive fury and watching something pulverized. From Gladiator "When I give the signal, unleash Hell."
My opening salvo on the playtest forums was that chaos should, according to all the fluff, be much more shooty, especially Tzeentch and Iron Warriors. As it is, the list is Black Legion, so I guess I'll have to wait.
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Neal
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 3:39 pm |
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Tas
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 11:11 pm |
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I remember doing a missile shoot one time off Hawaii and we fired 3 in one salvo (a rarity in poeacetime). I remember thinking as I did my bit and pushed my buttons...
"You know, the cost of these missiles is probably the same as all the tax I will ever pay in my life. I am therefore financing this entire shoot. Its worth it!"
Strength and Honour!
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Tas
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Transport Question Posted: Thu May 08, 2003 4:09 am |
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Ah yes, a Training/Practice TOW missile (used to) cost about $3000.00 a shot ... Hmmm ? That's a pretty good weekend in Vegas or here in my home town !!! (Names withheld to protect the innocent)
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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? And again you're correct Jimbo, the older I get the less time I /we have to game ?
... And Neal you and I and Tas too, know well about fire power ! 
...