Epic charge-across-the-board armies |
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies  Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 5:14 pm |
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Hi Peter,
Primarch: Morale rules are something highly abstracted in all GW games. In Heresy I used a DSII like morale system which would require such checks. |
And yet, I find that the DS-II system doesn't differentiate troop quality and morale status very well either... 
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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dafrca
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Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 5:29 pm |
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I think the whole troop quality and morale staus in wargames can never be more then an abstract attempt to capture something we can not even explain now.
How do you quantify Audy Murphy? How do you quantify the fact that a man will stay at his post one battle and run the next.
I believe most wargames either ignore it or over focus on it.
dafrca
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primarch
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Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:59 pm |
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Hi!
True Maksim, it does not differentiate. I remember one debate with Kenneth Peters with whom I created the original game and my main beef with two separate stats is adding needless mechanics. I found that one unififed stat was just as good and created the right effect.
Then again, DS-II is the only game I can remember at this scale for sci-fi that even attempts to address morale and unit quality. While not perfect, it's pretty good.
Primarch.
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:21 am |
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Hi Peter,
Primarch: True Maksim, it does not differentiate. I remember one debate with Kenneth Peters with whom I created the original game and my main beef with two separate stats is adding needless mechanics. I found that one unififed stat was just as good and created the right effect. |
The two are related, but I do see troop quality and troop morale as two different things.
E-A has troop quality ingrained into unit stats and uses BMs to indicate morale.
Primarch: Then again, DS-II is the only game I can remember at this scale for sci-fi that even attempts to address morale and unit quality. While not perfect, it's pretty good. |
It is laudable for a 6mm sci-fi game, but there are some wonderful morale and troop quality systems availible from microarmor, Napoleonic and ancients games...
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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iblisdrax
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Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:41 am |
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Does anyone remember the computer game Close Combat? From Microsoft? It is the only game that I can remember that I felt like the troops actually acted 'accordingly'. You would have alot that would dig in under fire, refuse to move, or simply break and run away. And then you would have the occasional hero, who would charge the enemy and lead his men to victory! That game tracked EVERY bullet, wound, casualty, etc, and factored them all in. Very nice.
my 2cents,
iblisdrax
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Markconz
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Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 2:05 am |
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Location: New Zealand
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| Quote (iblisdrax @ 31 2005 May,00:41) | Does anyone remember the computer game Close Combat? ?From Microsoft? ?It is the only game that I can remember that I felt like the troops actually acted 'accordingly'. ?You would have alot that would dig in under fire, refuse to move, or simply break and run away. ?And then you would have the occasional hero, who would charge the enemy and lead his men to victory! ?That game tracked EVERY bullet, wound, casualty, etc, and factored them all in. ?Very nice.
my 2cents,
iblisdrax |
Yep it was well done... although I often had difficulty with the terrain and telling whether or not I was actually getting cover from it - especially with the hills etc.
Also the historical nature of it could make it very frustrating to play... like the Eastern Front scnearios early on as Russians ... or later on as Germans 
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dafrca
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Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:44 am |
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At the sake of painting a target on my back, I want to say something about the "need" to import rules from other systems.
One of the truest games I have ever seen for "realism" had details for weapon, skill, condition of weapon, weather, wind (yes seperate), ammo load, fatigue count of shooter, etc. It took us more then 10 min. to play out one shot. We sold the game on our junk table at the next con.
In our desire for "realism" in a game, let's not loose sight of playability. I would be very sad to be playing a game where both my opponents and my troops both ran because some "moral" chart said so. Talk about a bore. 
One of the reasons that many games either have little extra rules for moral or even ignore it is for the same reason most of our armies have "Full" TO&Es or why we allow Orks and Eldar on the field. We play these games for fun and not for "Realism".
OK, now that my rant about balance between rules and playability is over, please return to your rules addition talk. 
dafrca
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:48 am |
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Well, I liked DSII (we even used a modified version in one iteration of our hybrid rules !), but I thought the Infantry rules were a bit limited (as Maksim said). My take on Epic is reality-centric, but certain things are going to be skewed, because it is Sci-fi. But a Sci-fi gaming that is to goofy/silly is not fun to me. So my point of "balance" may be different than most ... Realism, playability and all the other things that make a "good" game are a matter of taste as well. And as pointed out, fighting to the death happens historically, but it certainly isn't sign of good planning, etc. ... unless you are in the Japanese Army of WW2 !!
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Dwarf Supreme
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Post subject: Epic charge-across-the-board armies Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 3:18 pm |
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We play these games for fun and not for "Realism".
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I have to agree with dafrca on this point. When I want to play a game with a high realism factor, I trot out my cardboard warriors and play Advanced Squad Leader. Personally speaking, the level of complexity in epic up to SM/TL, especially the relatively simplistic morale rules, is just fine by me. I have PLENTY of complex wargames in my closet (ASL, Third Reich, Panzerblitz etc, etc) and I have no desire for epic to be as complex and "realistic" as those games.
This is just my opinion, but I do understand why others want a more "realistic" game, as seen in the Heresy rules (which seems like a fine game, but I probably won't ever play it.)
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