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So Fanatic is reorganizng. . .
primarch	Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . . Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:16 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! Well Gandalf, can say I can argue any of your points... ..mainly becuase I agree with all of them.... Hey CS, who said we have a reputation for being pessimistic on these forums? I'd say if anything we are "realistic" in our outlook and views. I find the fanboy drivel on some other sites to have little basis in reality. I'm constantly surprised by how "surprised" some people on other forums act with the recent turn of events. Disappointed I can understand, but surprised? It seems they did not read or beleive my many posts on why the current epic attempt would fail even before it was released.... Too bad I can predict lotto numbers.... Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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iblisdrax	Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . . Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:58 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:54 pm Posts: 3381 Location: First star to the right, and straight on till morning.	I think that the only thing disappointing at this point is the decision, for whatever reason, to release non core armies before the core ones.  I would love to have new pieces for my Chaos forces, since they are cobbled together from many sources (not that that is a bad thing for chaos ).  I also think that maybe this board is a little pessimistic, but honestly, has GW done anything to change that attitude in the past few years?  The only bright spot was the rerelease of Epic, and that done grudgingly with little support.  Now the whole Fanatic division has been reduced to 3 people, with 'support' from the main GW body.  Whatever.  Such 'support' could be very very little, and cut off with the wave of a hand.  But, as been said before, this comes as no suprise here.   my 2cents, iblisdrax _________________ "Have Leman Reuss, will travel" "Hallo. My name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my father prepare to die!"
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primarch	Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . . Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:25 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! In an attempt to make this board more optimistic.... How's that? Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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dafrca	Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . . Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:12 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	You guys are all wrong, GW is da bomb. They rock. The stuff's da best and they are always right dudes... .... ?.... dam, I have to stop channeling that fan boy. dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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dafrca	Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . . Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:20 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 29 2004 Nov.,08:45) Well, I like Jervis as a game designer, but as far as running the strategy of support for Fanatic I think he's come up light. I know he's got resource and budget restraints, but still. He's made some odd-ball decisions. Gandalf, The only part of your post I disagree with is that somehow Jervis is the one behind all these choices. I think that is naive. Jervis is not in charge any more then I am here at the company I work for. At the end of the day, Jervis can suggest, politic for, and argue for what he believes. But if the suits decide the return on investment is not there, they will make choices that, too us, seem odd. I think you are placing too much on Jervis. Other then that, you are not saying anything we all have not said for the last few weeks/months. Welcome to the club. dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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Legion 4	Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . . Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:57 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	With the attenuated release schedule, Fanatic Mag going the way of, Firepower and Epic Mag ... well it just does not feel right. Of course I'm very "old school" and we don't play Epic "from the box" ! _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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chubbybob	Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . . Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:57 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 10:15 am Posts: 107	Rant begins (and I make no apologies for the strength of its conviction):- As one of the "old men" of the hobby with a long memory for games that came and went and companies that flared brightly then died, I believe Jervis not only held his own at fanatic but conquered and prospered. Those critisicing him have very short memories. Before he started epic was all but dead and buried, mighty empires long cremated, BFG gasping it's last with just a few empire and chaos ships released, Bloodbowl a fond memory and necromunda lost in space. HOW DIFFERENT are things now. BFG has more ships than you can shake a stick at. Epic has three almost complete ranges available and a new core set of rules and its veteran players have had their interest revived. Jervis brief was to get back the veteran gamers in a market that was disappearing in a mass of 10-14 year old yah booh sucks waaaagh gamers. The quality of this board and the fanatic boards along with the current availability of the non core games are proof he did well. The problem with the bulk of players of GW games is they are used to being led by the nose from birth to death and expect the hobby delivered on a plate. IF the non core games are about to disappear once more up their proverbial rear ends it won't be because Jervis failed to direct his energies but because WE THE PUBLIC failed to pump in enough cash sales to make the GW suits think the expenditure worthwhile to support their financial investments in a profit making organisation. ? ? ? ? ? Its way too easy for us to sit back and moan that GW have not done enough to promote our favourite game albeit "EpicA" or "Sexy Sue and the sex slaves". GW provide the means and the manner, it's US THE PUBLIC that need to get out to our local clubs and groups and promote that game to our fellow players. THATS HOW IT WORKS FOR HISTORICAL GAMERS. There are rulesets out there that are played all around the world such as the DBx range of rulesets that are played not because the writer is a publishing & distribution genius but because enough players put in the effort to push the rules around the world. I'm sorry but the blame and our salvation does not lie in the hands of Jervis etc but with us the players who put in the real effort. How many truly inspirational web sites are you aware of . I can name maybe four. How many groups have you encouraged or coerced into playing epic. My bet is very few. Pretty piss poor really isn't it for such a lot of whingers. We can't even be bothered to put in a minor effort to push our own hobby. Rant over Bob DeAngelis
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stormseer	Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . . Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:28 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:52 pm Posts: 4598 Location: Suffolk, UK.	Mmmm... too much whinging is bad, I heartily agree- however, even if every one of us forum members had created another Epic/BFG buyer or two from our associates (which I have done; I'd rather have someone to play than just whinge about GW... ?), even if this did happen, GW's money men would have still been unsatisfied I daresay- The sales of non-core games would never (for them) have 'justified' the investment they were making... -so we as players/buyers are hardly to blame Bob, a very harsh arguement.... I think Jervis is a top bloke for almost single-handidly saving the quality games SG now supports- Games like BFG, Mordheim and Warmaster can now happily move on with a more limited release schedule, as they have huge ranges of models available. Sure, he has made some not so good decisions (non core lists first etc... On the other hand Epic needs core armies releasing, and is possibly in the worst situation following the cutbacks news, along with Necromunda, which, although it has a large range of models available, includes many old models, with only 4 gangs released so far with seperate hands, a rulebook full of the worst typos and ommisions ever in a GW ruleset, no online rulebook, and overpriced models *cough* spyrers *cough* It is positive to hear that Jervis is looking into getting Nids and Chaos released in some form soon, so unbridled pessimisim is unjustified- we are not all doomed.... My 2p, ~Stormy _________________ www.darkrealmminiatures.com
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vanvlak	Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . . Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:13 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:52 am Posts: 10348 Location: Malta	Hi all, not much to add, but I support Jervis too - I guess he's under bundles of pressure and still trying to run SGs as best as he can, with a genuine interest in SG players. He's not your run of the mill employee, but someone who believes in his work. Re the non-core lists - I'm not sure: three core lists were issued in the 1st outing: IG, SM and Orcs, and these are all popular lists. I'd say the strategy was to try to issue a new race every 6 months-1 year, with non-core variations for already issued armies, pehaps trying to promote sales for the 1st out armies by producing variants, whilst helping out Epic players by issuing the army. I'd guess there were either sales-based or GW directive-based reasons for this, and if the core armies were issued at this rate, it might have worked. The provision of online test lists is not good enough, but it helps a lot, and says a lot for Jervis' support of players (how many other GW products beyond SGs have living rulebooks?) Now of course the whole thing is derailed, but I don't think Jervis should be blamed in any way. I'd be really worried if he were to leave GW. I know we've got netepic etc., but it's nice to have some support, even though it's possibly against the company trend. _________________ Back from oblivion (again)?
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Mojarn Piett	Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . . Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:56 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:35 am Posts: 5455 Location: Finland	So let's see: 1) We are to blame for not doing the GW's marketing for them. 2) We are to blame for not buying the insane amount of minis required to make the GW quarterly blokes satisfied. Right.     And I don't think ANYONE in here is laying the blame on Jervis. _________________ I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.
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chubbybob	Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . . Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:40 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 10:15 am Posts: 107	Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 30 2004 Nov.,10:56) So let's see: 1) We are to blame for not doing the GW's marketing for them. 2) We are to blame for not buying the insane amount of minis required to make the GW quarterly blokes satisfied. Right. ? ? And I don't think ANYONE in here is laying the blame on Jervis. taking your points one at a time. 1) GW market their products better than any other game company around. They reach a bigger proportion of their intended market, they present the product beautifully and they make their product available through widespread outlet stores and mail order in many parts of the world and have been around longer than most other companies. Most other games company produce a set of rules and a limited number of figures to support it and do little else. If the game won't fly then its because its no damn good or has very limited appeal to make it worth while financially (remember GW arent and should not be a charitable organisation.). Historical gamers will explain this to you easily . They NEVER have complete ranges . Producers come and go and they just get on with the problem and their hobbies with proxies. So in short You cant do their marketing for them but you can help spread the popularity of a product you want to survive,. historical gamers do it all the time. Thats why warhammer historical with hardly any marketing at all by GW standards is absolutely flying along in the historical circles. the gamers like it and are spreading the word.     The problem is its a hobby . You get back what you put in. If you expect a games company to spoon feed you then take up fishing cos its not gonna happen 2) Most definitely. I was a production manger for matchbox toys. Moulds are phenomenally expensive. If the demands disappear or are insufficient you go broke. For plastics the demand has to be in the thousands. The bigger the range you try to maintain or produce quickly the quicker you go broke. if WE THE PUBLIC dont buy enough of the product It is not economical and they the investors will pull their money out. I repeat GW is not the department of social security. If you dont buy enough product to make them profits then they will pull out . Its simple economics. Oh and yes the amounts are large NOT just to make a profit but to break even. Matchbox toys one of the most succesful toy companies in the UK went broke because they overreached and tried to be both a toy company and a hobby producer. the plastic kit side of the business which they entered into when modellers convinced them the sales would be worthwhile eventually drove them down the toilet. and if you really think no one has blamed Jervis then read this thread again. I have no wish to name posters but Jervis has was blamed in in the very first post. It's too easy to blame GW or Jervis or the cleaner. What it comes down to in the end is that if with even GW's marketing policies the product doesnt fly then it is just not popular enough to be produced. Painful but there you go. We dont buy enough to make it viable. Its just possible that if the range had been declared as marines, Imperials and orks then anything else you convert or proxy it might have been viable. ie concentrated production effort. That however is very debatable. Bob DeAngelis
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Mojarn Piett

Post subject: So Fanatic is reorganizng. . . Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:54 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:35 am Posts: 5455 Location: Finland

GW markets WH40K and Warhammer "better than any other game company around". Not Epic or any other Specialist game around. If they want new gamers to get to Epic they need to give it some serious exposure. And in this case "serious" is NOT a couple of articles in WD which the fanboys forgot as soon as the new 40k came out. Historical gamers will explain this to you easily . They NEVER have complete ranges . Producers come and go and they just get on with the problem and their hobbies with proxies. In spite of them being so active in working as a non-paid marketing personnel unlike lazy ol' me?   As for 2), I'm inclined to agree with Primarch when he said that GW expects the Epic to sell as well as 40k WITH LESS SUPPORT. When it doesn't they pull the plug. If you expect a games company to spoon feed you then take up fishing cos its not gonna happen

I hate fish.

I have 20k+ of IG, Orks and Marines. Even though I am apprentice Primarch first class guess how much more I'm going to buy. At present I am collecting Eldar and probably will fulfill my sacred duty to GW as pointed out previously and buy more minis when they come out.