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Dropship update!

zak

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:50 pm

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The problem is deeper , as Epic is an offshoot of 40k , which is a skirmish game, there are a number of armies which do not have fundamental weapon systems as a result.

We already have one trick army which uses aircraft instead of artillery (Orks) but how many more will go down the same path.

Tau, Necrons , Black Legion.?

All modern armies have varying proportions of the basic trooptypes.

Armour , infantry , artillery , flak, ATGW , recon, this is not just because they are like to copy each other. All these trooptypes are necessary to fight combined arms mechanised warfare.

So unless the problem of finding artillery for these armies are addressed ,an aircraft arms race seems on the cards.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:21 pm

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Excellent Points, Zak ! I really don't have a problem with some armies having more FA or not, that may be the "way" that army fights. And I totally understand combined arm warfare as being a participant from '79-'90 as an Infantry Officer. If the Necrons see the light of day, who knows what G/W has in mind. The IG has more FA than any other army and everyone else has varying lesser amounts to almost zero (Orks,Tau). We still use Thud Guns and mortars for SMs too, so we still have more FA than the current forces. Plus the excellent SM1 Off Board Support system. I'm betting we won't see much more FA out there and G/W continuing to field aircraft for more of the armies. Again I don't really see a problem with that, as based on my gaming past (since the late '60s), my "Epicing" since '90 and experiences in my previous career. CAS can be used as effectively as FA, in most cases.

I don't like or play 40K, the models are nice, but the rules are generally purile, at best. So I don't like to make the Epic-40K paradigm. :;):

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dafrca

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:53 pm

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Location: Burbank, CA, USA

Quote (zak @ 16 2005 July,06:50)

The problem is deeper , as Epic is an offshoot of 40k , which is a skirmish game, there are a number of armies which do not have fundamental weapon systems as a result.

[snip]

So unless the problem of finding artillery for these armies are addressed ,an aircraft arms race seems on the cards.

In the end this is the basic level problem with a couple of the sticking points of late.

I agree that the Aircraft have gone from a fun "addition" to a focus of power creep. The next question is, how do w stop the creep while still addressing the issue. If the folks at GW do not want to face the lack because they are trying too hard to not allow each army to go to vanilla, where do we put our efforts?

I liked TRCs idea of maybe setting some power standards for aircraft. Then the point cost would be based on number in a formation and any power adjusts would drive up or down the cost accordingly.

dafrca

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dafrca

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:59 pm

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Quote (Legion 4 @ 16 2005 July,07:21)

I really don't have a problem with some armies having more FA or not, that may be the "way" that army fights.

The issue is, that as each new list comes out the crew is starting to use the Flyers as not just an answer to the lack of FA, but rather, they are starting to push power levels above the FA for dealing death blows to formations etc from afar.

The fact is, GW has always had a problem with Power Creep. As each new army or army re-release happens they get more powerful. Slowly the older armies need to be ?adjusted? somehow to raise their power levels up.

What I see here in EpicA land is that right now that creep is happening more in the flyers then any where else.

dafrca

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pixelgeek

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:21 pm

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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Quote (dafrca @ 16 2005 July,08:53)

The next question is, how do w stop the creep while still addressing the issue. If the folks at GW do not want to face the lack because they are trying too hard to not allow each army to go to vanilla, where do we put our efforts?

Well in terms of Epic the rules review is looking at a series of changes to the aircraft and flak rules to try and make them a bit easier to understand and use but also to make the playing field a bit more balanced.

If anyone has any specific concerns that they want to see addressed they can email me or post them here.

At least at an Epic level the problem is being examined and we are going to hopefully have a solution.

As Zak points out the core problem is that the 40K background is littered with grossly absurd situations such as Chaos armies not having artillery. And, as he mentions, this gets addressed via aircraft.

We're tied to this background material so our only solution is to make sure that the game is balanced within those preconceptions. Obviously the aircraft and flak rules currently need work adn we also need to make sure that we keep future aircraft in line.

Thankfullly we have a few people, like neal, who understand this issue's importance and work to keep it in people's minds when we develop new rules.

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dafrca

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:39 pm

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Quote (pixelgeek @ 16 2005 July,10:21)

As Zak points out the core problem is that the 40K background is littered with grossly absurd situations such as Chaos armies not having artillery. And, as he mentions, this gets addressed via aircraft.

I agree 100%. I think what I was attempting to say is that too often, because the GW folks want to keep the feel an army has, a feel it gets from 40k, they are reluctant to allow all armies to have similar units.

How often I have heard "no, let's not give Army X one of those because it will then just become Army Z"

Too often they are trying to keep 40k in epic, when the games have very different focus levels.

Bottom Line, I think we are more in agreement then not. :;):

dafrca

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Jaldon

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:58 pm

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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am
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Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.

Fighting the Last War

This is what I like to call the way GW developes new army lists.

It started with the work on Swordwind and has continued from that point to the present, and it isn't just the aircraft.

It seems that after the starter lists (Ork/SM/IG) many seem to want to 'make up' or 'get all' the toys they need to beat the other armies. Comments like "Well the SM can do this" or "The Orks got a similar thing" resulted in the litteral creation of fixes just for percieved items.

This turns what could have been an interesting and exciting army with real strengths and weaknesses, into an army that isn't all that interesting to use and only has percieved weaknesses instead of real ones.

Neal and others are correct when they say that airpower creep is the recent 'solution' to an army's weaknesses, and I agree this issue has to be addressed, but we also cannot lose sight of the need for an army to have real weaknesses instead of just percieved ones.

The sad truth is if the airpower issue is 'fixed' we must stay aware of possible 'other' solutions. Army's in Epic-A need weaknesses, real weaknesses, to give them character. So in some cases rather then 'fix' the artillery weakness of some of the armies it might be better to make them better at something else rather then give them psuedo artillery.

Just my 2 cents/pence

Jaldon

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Squared

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:18 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:07 am
Posts: 61

I don't think that there is any problem with aircraft being used as FA. The Orks do it and it is not too powerful.

Where some of the problems in development have come from is comparing ground based weapons to aircraft weapons. The ground based weapons power are based on long periods of sustained fire. An aircraft only gets a few seconds of fire before they have to break off, usually having expended most of their ammo. Also the range of most air based weapons should be very short, this is because while the weapon can shoot farther than this range for it to get off more than one shot the aircraft will have to maintain its heading and its speed will take it much closer to the enemy formations. This is why most weapons have a range of 15cm because this is the point at which the attack run ends and the aircraft needs to start thinking about leaving the area.

^2

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pixelgeek

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:37 am

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Quote (Squared @ 16 2005 July,21:18)

This is why most weapons have a range of 15cm because this is the point at which the attack run ends and the aircraft needs to start thinking about leaving the area.

I think its more of a balance issue in Epic. Short range means that its easier for players to cover formations with Flak as the area that an aircraft needs to get into to attack is shorter

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Legion 4

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:54 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

All good points, and I have to agree with ^2, aircraft are off and on ... FA is on the board, etc. ... But "CAS creep", could be a problem and this will change the paradigm completely. Limiting aircraft (25-33% of TBL, for example), and hopefully G/W won't creat numerous aircraft models (but it appears they have trouble making any models for certain armies!). We play it, aircraft are on and off, 25-33% of TBL can be spent on aircraft, Titans and Off Board Spt (equal to E:A BFG Spacecraft). If you can't buy/get too many on the board, if there is "creep", it will be limited, IMO ...

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Tas

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:54 am

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Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am
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Location: Sydney, NSW

I think the aircraft problem would be better solved by being further abstracted:

An aircraft travelling at combat speeds with rockets and bombs and the like (which can be lobbed etc) would spend a miniscule amount of time over such a small area as the table represents. Thus a series of mods based on army design, assignment of proetctive air cover (CAP) and the like can be made. Then let the actual model (if it doesnt abort/get shotdown) do an attack run and then get removed. Quick and easy

Advanced Squad Leader uses this sort of system and it works very well. And that is a much much more complex system than anything GW have dreamed up!

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pixelgeek

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:07 am

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Quote (Tas @ 16 2005 July,23:54)

An aircraft travelling at combat speeds with rockets and bombs and the like (which can be lobbed etc) would spend a miniscule amount of time over such a small area as the table represents.

Don't forget that the ranges are meant to be logarthmic(sp) and not linear.

As well the aircraft are meant to be doing their full approach moves on the table so it represents more than just the basic attack run which would be, if we follow the "an assault is a 40K game" rough scale and time guide, when the player finishes the aircrafts movement and fire.

So the aircraft is on table significantly longer than its approach move and based on the scale it travels a significant distance when it does so

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Tas

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:10 am

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Location: Sydney, NSW

Thanks Pg, but yes I was taking that into account already.

I frequently conduct exercises against modern combat aircraft and maintai that the above hodls true. Intercepts, IPs, Theatre AD etc all happens at 50+ miles. The terminal phase of the attack is almost the easy bit for the attacker.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:36 am

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Quote (Squared @ 17 2005 July,10:18)

I don't think that there is any problem with aircraft being used as FA. ?The Orks do it and it is not too powerful.

*snip* Also the range of most air based weapons should be very short, this is because while the weapon can shoot farther than this range for it to get off more than one shot the aircraft will have to maintain its heading and its speed will take it much closer to the enemy formations. *snip*

Essentially yes

Current balance works but the introduction of 90cm 2+MW TK(d3) weapons in formations of two with 2 DC each for 500 points (fictious example I hope) would unbalance it.

I think the current Eldar stuff pretty much sets the maximum for airpower. Anyhting going beyond them would have to be looked at carefully.
Note going beyond isn't just firepower but save and especially DC and squadron size. Bigger squadrons are proportional better than smaller ones as they take less fire. Big squadrons of multiple DC planes are also very good as due to the hit allocation rules it is harder to shoot one down.

And the big problem is you can't compensate for this with points like you can ont eh ground as good air defence is not a given with armies. Indeed the current lists (with the exception of the Eldar who are excellent fliers backed up with plentiful and good AA) provide a moderate amount of defence.

In my experience in club and tourny that is for the guard 5 or so Hydra and maybe thunderbolts (though often no air), marine 3 or so hunters (they are difficult to get without having a one dimensional list) backed up by landed thunderhawks and about 8-12 flak wagonz for Orks with 3-6 fighter bomberz (though I have to say of all the lists Ork flak varies the most, I've seen everything from ignoring the skies to the full 33% of planes backed up with flakwagonz instead of gunwagonz!).

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Legion 4

Post subject: Dropship update!

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:41 pm

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Yes, Tas's points are very valid, and both he and I have "real world" experience with CAS. Aircraft should be on and off, with any flak shots in between. And I base many of our rule mods not only on military but gaming experiences, as well. Just like in AH's ASL, SPI's Combined Arms, etc., etc., aircraft come on board, drop ordinance, fly off and maybe catch AA fire in that brief time ... period. G/W's rules guys are no where near as "good" as AH's, SPI, etc. G/W wants to appease the kids that buy their games and makes up some silly, unrealistic(?) rules to sell more models/toys. In theory most FA shouldn't even be on the board. The Epic Yahoo site's Webmaster rants about this all the time, but we can't rent a basketball court to make all Epic ranges in scale ! :;):

And I understand about "game ranges", Jervis's "sliding scale", G/W's prediliction for close combat (those rules are bigger than any other section, and we are not pleased with it and will modify it) plus their obsession with making 40K and Epic comparable, etc. I think what I have seen shows the CAS rules are generally good and limiting aircraft to say 33% seems correct. If a gamer decides to use CAS instead of FA that is his choice. And of course Tau, Orks and Chaos have limited FA, so as I said I don't see a problem with this and the E:A rules should reflect limited CAS on board and part of TBL. Our rules will ... but as always "Do what works for you!" :;):

"It's a poor gunner who blames his weapon for his failure to hit the target." I think a Russian said that ...

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