I use the 2008 handbook, and land raiders at 350 points for 4 are worth it, especially en masse and supporting each other (e.g. 3 formations on the flank, if anyone steps up to shoot one formation, the others will cream them). That much RA leaves your opponent very short on MW and TK.

I suspect I would rarely take them at 400, however.

The complaint, in regards to Space Marines especially, comes up a lot.

It's already been said, but Scions is what you want for vehicles- as it allows you to embed Predators in a Tactical formation with Rhino's and Razorbacks as shields (and infantry as shields against enemy close combating them).

The truth is though, that the vanilla list is an Air Assault list- Space Marines are an elite hit-n-run, shock-n-awe army. Their tanks aren't MBT's that sit and slug it out with the enemy like Leman Russ', Predators, etc are fast, light tanks that support Marine infantry. Like the Marines themselves they need to pick on isolated formations using their superior speed, hit it and get away.

Marines can do this with Drop Pods and Thunderhawks getting them where needed fast, but unfortunately Predators, etc are usually stuck on the ground (unless you start taking Landing Craft) and so subject to all the Artillery, Aircraft and fast enemy units ground units suffer from.

I wouldn't mind an Eldar like 'Hit-n-run' special rule for Marine vehicles but that's wishlisting.

Frankly, when people start crying for Marine tanks to be Leman Russ, I retort that IG should have a Transport Aircraft, Orks should have long-range artillery, Tyranids should have Volcano Cannon guns, etc, etc...
Clearly I don't want all armies to have everything.

I like that fade attack idea for codex marine tanks. It really fits.
Or how about scout, at a pinch?
Or even walker!

tactical advantage and surprise attacks....

MBT they are not!

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Remember that boys...

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I've seen the "Landraiders are a non-option" assertion a bunch of times over the past couple of weeks, and without any specific argument its just that: an assertion. Enough with the hyperbole. In our gaming group, I've seen plenty of tank formations taken by the SM player. Dave on this forum uses preds to great effect. I've taken Landraiders on multiple occasions, and if I lost those battles it was not that they cost a lot of points. The LR formation is small and expensive, but its also pretty tough and resilient for its size. Time to back up those blanket statements with some sort of evidence, IMO.

SM formations are all pretty small. Wouldn't it look weird if among all those small formations you had a huge formation of tanks. Russes fit in with the IG. In an SM army a big tank formation would evoke the song "one of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same..."

I, too, lament that the SM are just not optimized for ground-pounding (I believe Dave is going to post my latest list-construction travesty in his Raven Guard - IG test batrep); but this is simply not the strength of the army. Flexibility is.

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Howdy Irondeath,

While the desire for more armor on the core lists is understandable, the reality is there are a lot of variant lists that will adequately suit your needs and are considered to be relatively stable.  Chroma is right about how everything is now run by the fans, so people just need to get used to this.

Yme-Loc I think is the Eldar armor list.
Minervans is the IG armor list and has not only tank companies but tank platoons.  The updated version will also have an assault-based super heavy tank that should address some of your concerns as to their limitations.  
Orks are really flexible, so I can't imagine you not being able to field all sorts of weird permutations of all armor.
I'm staying out of the SM discussion.

In short, you do have a lot at your disposal.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Your mileage may vary given your playing style and the playing style of your opponent but here are my thoughts on ground-pounding marines.

You're going to have to out activate your opponent. It's pretty key to have more activations than your opponent as it allows you to keep formations out of harms way while they maneuver.

Keep your high strategy rating in mind, especially towards the end of a turn. If you're out-activating your opponent chances are you can setup 3-4 activations in a row with your end of turn activations, and your first activation and retain the next turn if you win initiative. To wit...

With Annihilators, try a double at the end of the turn and a sustain the next turn. You're looking at 2.67 AT hits the first turn and 6.67 the second. Against Russes you'll average 2 kills, not great but the return fire will only be with 5 Russes as opposed to 10. If you could follow that up with a clipping Land Speeder assault or, even better, a bike assault with LS support the Russes are in for a rough time.

With Destructors, a double followed by a sustain on some infantry is usually enough to work them over. This followed up by a bike assault has worked well for me. If the infantry is in cover I use Vindicators though.

Finally, use your speed. Don't be afraid to sacrifice your firepower for to advance on a formation stead of sustaining in order to hide yourself better. Once more, use it to get yourself into a support position if you can. It's like another activation for free.

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For what it's worth, it strikes me that the "the Marines list is an airborne/drop list" argument is fallacious. It's not intended to be an airborne/drop-only listâ€â€

As an ork player I don't like the fact that Gunwagons are only useful as a meatshield for my upgraded tanks.
Seriously the price of ork tanks in a formation without oddboy should be lowered by a good margin to make them a useful formation.
Range, speed and save "feel" right for ork tanks but the price is too high.

(first post here and I'm complaining )

Wow, thats a nice straw man argument you have there.

Or, if you actually tried reading the thread you might have noticed that no-one wants marines to be better at ground pounding than the IG - thats something that you've chosen to make up all by yourself.

You're doing nothing except attempting to dimiss valid claims when the fact of the matter is that these units are in the list and they are ineffective. Its utterly illogical to claim that they're not there to be used.

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"A good orbital insertion is one you walk away from, a great one is where they can use the Thunderhawk again." Roboute Guilliman.

I see that you chose to limit your statement to the Epic:Armageddon rulebook. I intended no such limitation.

While I have only been playing Epic:Armageddon for a couple of years, I've been playing in the 40K universe since 1st Ed Rogue Trader (and used to play Space Marine back in the day). I am aware of several examples of background material that promote the Marines as an armour-oriented maneouvre warefare force, as well as an airborne-oriented drop force. They are frequently described as all-rounders.

I do not have the book in front of me, but if you review the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium (from the late 80s or early 90s, which is the book that first introduced Terminators and Harlequins to 40K), there is a section discussing the then newly introduced Spartan Land Raider variant. That section describes a mechanised Marines force led by Terminators in Spartans. From memory, that section refers to the prowess of massed Marine armour.

My position is that Codex Marines should be able to go toe-to-toe with a mechanised force with their own mechanised force. Indeed, the current Codex list is so close to providing for this that the discussion has to this point has already highlighted several viable tweaks to the Codex list. Without those tweaks, however, it does not.

I genuinely believe Marine armour in the Codex list breaks with what was intended for that list.

One last point: the Scions of Iron list that is consistently put forward as some kind of panacea is NOT the solution to this problem. As a chapter-specific list, I think it is fineâ€â€

Then what are you looking for?  The only "official" Space Marine lists are the one in the rulebook and the White Scars.  What is this "limitation" you don't intend to be bound by?


Then surely you must realize that the background, history, tactical and strategic deployment, organization, and strength of the Marines as an army has been changed hither and yon multiple times?  Why is the "past" history better or more valid than the current history?


And the current information is that the Ultramarines have twelve, yes *twelve*, Land Raiders in their entire Chapter armoury!  And little more than double that in Predators of all types!  Things have changed, Marines don't *have* "massed armour" anymore, and since GW re-writes are retroactive, they never did.  I'm not saying this is a good thing, but a push for "massed Marine armour" is a vision that isn't supported anymore.

Heck, pre-Heresy, *EVERYONE* used Land Raiders in massive quantities, but that isn't the case anymore.


I'm going to assume you mean "armoured force" up there when you write "mechanized force", so I'll address that.

A Leman Russ Company, with standard Hydra, is 700 points.  Two formations of four Land Raiders, is, with the NetEA change, 700 points.  That's eight Marine tanks vs eleven Imperial Guard tanks, for the same point value, that should be an interesting match up, and fairly close in effect; it probably favours the Guard straight up, but no fight is "straight up" and the Marines could bring a lot of other advantages into play supporting those Land raiders.



And what is your proposal?

Are you just asking for the following:

Land Raider Detachment - Four Land Raiders - 300 points - add 1-4 additional Land Raiders for +x points

and

Predator Detachment - Four Predators - 200 points - add 1-4 additional Predators for +y points

Or something similar?  If so, go for it and report the results, that would be great to see!


The thing is, there are a variety of tactical approaches the Marines can take, it's just that "death from above" is the *easiest* to use and the one most likely to be used by surgical/precision troops that the Marines represent, but it is *far* from the only way Marines can be used.  Ground based Marines with Razorbacks and Land Speeders can be a very deadly force, for a single example.

Lastly (for now!   )


Hena is actually the creator of that list and won an offical GW army creation contest with it.

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