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The Demiurg

 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:04 pm 
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well then, best of luck to us both  :laugh:

I have tons of bugs. where is the most current list available?

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 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:02 pm 
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cool...now back to the Demiurg...a battle report is in progress...more to follow!

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 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:32 pm 
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Thanks for addressing my concerns, but I think you missed my point about the Hearthguard cavalry and Gyrocopters.  I'm not saying that they're too good for they're points, or too good based on formation allowances, or anything like that that can be playtested and fixed.  Just looking at their statlines, they strike me as simply too good.  Cavalry are simply better than Shining Spears, and this strikes me as just plain wrong.  The Spears get skimmer, and the cavalry get two attacks, one of which is first strike and MW (the MW making it better than the Spears' Lance in every way), and extra armor.  I'm fine with the extra armor, but maybe tone down the attack to somehow worse than CC4+ FF5+ Lance.  I simply don't think that human-derivative bikers ought to be more offensively powerful than Eldar Aspect Warrior Jetbikers.

The same is true for the Gyrocopter.  You've got a platform that's faster than a Tau Hammerhead, with very nearly the same ability to damage targets, and ana only slightly worse save.  I'd be happier with this if its move was 30cm.  It won't impact it that much in-game, but it makes clear that it's not in the same league as the Hammerhead.


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 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:01 am 
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Quote (epilgrim @ 26 Mar. 2006 (15:21))

First out: Thanks for calling me insecure and sad. I'm sure that's a nice tidbit of information for everyone else to hear.

However, given that it is quite clearly stated that the Demiurg are aliens, there is a glaring discrepency in the fluff. However, as you are quite well aware of that, I'll hold on that 'thread' of discussion.

As I illustrated in the email, I see nothing especially wrong or off with the list. Though, as you well know, I'm not exactly too experienced on such matters anyway. An area I feel I would be better able to contribute would be the fluff and background side. Simple: The Demiurg and Squats are established as different races[one alien, one abuhuman]. I simply feel it would be beneficial to your article in general to move away from 'Human Origins' of the Squats. Rather, have them as a seperate race. I highly suspect alot more people would be open to that approach, including GW itself.

IIRC Ray Bell himself has had a few discussions on this topic with 'GW people' though nothing official has been said, he said:

They look 'roughly' like dwarves, but have a sort of 'elaphant-type' leathery skin, it's not blue/grey but a sort of warm bronze colour. There was no evidence of hair (but I guess they could shave!). Some wear all sorts of gizmos and doo-hickies and 'monicals' of some sort for resource scanning.

Basic Facts (but everybody knows these!):
They Hate Orks!
Technologically advanced (beyond human ability to replicate)
High use of Automation, including loads of minning pods housed aboard Demiurg ships.
A race of 'miners'!
Thier ships have no central command such as a bridge.
They work as mercs for almost anyone!
They work for the Tau often (in comparison to not).
They 'gave' the Tau Ion cannon technology.

If anything we should work from these few facts and try not to delve any deeper than that!


And also, over all the time, said nothing to contradict my assertions that they were aliens[as it has been established that they are in the aforementioned sections of fluff].

However, if you think it's best to stick with the human-origins. Fair enough, the worst I can do is keep repeating until I get branded a spammer and banned[which I have no intention of doing].

With aim to actually address any concerns, I think Gotchaye has started down the path I'd take if I was able.

Xisor

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 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:12 am 
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Gotchaye,

The Heathguard Cavalry have been playtested and are not as gross as you might think.

Simple comparision of one unit verses one other unit is not how to balance a formation.

Keep in mind that if the HCG went up against Shining Spears they would not get their First Strike attack at all (see skimmer rules) and they would lose the advatage of thier reinforced armour. Clearly the Shining Spears have the advantage in this assault example.

As far as the Gyrocopters, why does it have to be slower than say a IG vulture (which is it's closest cousin), valkyrie, SM land speeder, Ork Deth Kopta, or any Eldar skimmer.

I'm not familiar with the Hammerhead...why exactly is the Iron Eagle not in it's league?

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 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:41 am 
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Have I been playing skimmers wrong?  It was my understanding that I could force an enemy to use his FF value, but that any abilities he gets (First Strike, Extra Attacks, etc) for being in CC were still his to keep.  Even so, the Spears couldn't then use their own Lance ability, and so still lose out, having a worse FF value and worse armor.

Again, I'm not talking about balance - it just strikes me as wrong that, point costs aside, the Hearthguard Cavalry are simply better units than are Shining Spears.  This is completely different than discussing whether one is more useful than the other to its formation, or whether one is more useful given other abilities of the army and the like, this is simply about Hearthguard Cavalry being more offensively powerful than Shining Spears for a similarly sized model in a similar role.  To give an example that might clarify my position a little bit - if Guardsmen were given 4+ RA, and then perfectly pointed so as to be completely balanced, there would still be something wrong.  Guardsmen ought not to be as survivable as Terminators.  That's my issue with the Hearthguard.

On the Hammerhead - it's very much characteristic of the Tau way of war, and so I imagine that it should be something that they can do better than anyone else.  Epic rules for it give it a 4+ save and either an AP3/AT4/AA6 or an AP4/AT3, with obscene ranges on both.  The Gyrocopter just really seems to be competing for this same sort of role, and, for the size of chassis and speed, seems to do it better than the Hammerhead.  It could be slower because it mounts that tremendous Battlecannon, perhaps.  Note that all of those other things you named carry much lighter weaponry, whereas the Battlecannon is the main armament of the gigantic Leman Russ.  Eldar skimmers are an exception, of course, but that seems appropriate for them.


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 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:39 am 
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opps, my analogy on the HGC and SS was inaccuate...the HCG would lose half thier attack but keep thier armour, and the SS would have worse to hit numbers. That still leaves the SS with more attacks and an excellent save. Given the choice with fresh formations, half attacks and no MW attacks, the SS would survive better in FF if assaulted...but in CC they would come off worse for wear, true enough. something to think on...

Statistics-wise in a FF the HGC generate 1.5 casualties while the SS generate 1.18, not really all that different...

in CC... HCG would kill 3 with FS-MW, and another 1.5 ?for 4.5, and the SS would kill 1.36.

The HG and HGC were adapted from SM Terminators, and they are not thier equals at all...As for concerns that they are too good in comparison to other units...playtesting has not shown them to be so...especially against any eldar vehicles where they almost never get thier First Strike attacks. Additional playtesting comments on this would be welcome. thanks again Gotchaye!

The Iron Eagle always had a Battle Cannon, so I kept it. The Vulture has 2 AT 2+ rockets (one-shot) with 120 range, so I fail to see what makes a Battle Cannon so problematic...

I just looked up the hammerhead stats using the 4.1 list...are you kidding me?...this is a main battletank with 1 primary weapon and 2 secondary weapons (both with special rules), by comparison the Iron Eagle has only 1 primary weapon and a short range passive AA shot. the Iron eagle is no were near the role of a MBT. It's closer to a firestorm or a vulture.

additionally please take note, the Demuirg army has no actual tank doctrine and as such fills the role with different solutions (Overlords, Iron Eagles, MCF), but the Iron Eagle does not compare to a Hammerhead, no way.





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 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:56 am 
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Xisor,

who is Ray Bell?

I don't think anyone including the Studio know what will be done at present, I'm working from this point and it's getting some decent feedback, so it continues...they stay Demiurg and my fiction stands on it's merits.

While we discuss the list here, I have no problem discussing the fiction in an alternate thread.





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 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:19 pm 
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Quote (epilgrim @ 26 Mar. 2006 (15:21))
3. What makes your opinion superior to anyone elses?
4. When I have made no attempt to criticize your fictional work, why do you insist on doing so to me - are you really that insecure?

...

overall you seem to be taking a sematics issue very personally...sad

Can we please not be reduced to this kind of thing. If opinions are solicited, then they will be stated - even if they are not what you want to hear. If you dont like them, igonore them.

Anyway, Ray Bell is one of the 'player/developers' for Battlefleet Gothic, who was instrumental in the Tau and is very active in new races, etc.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:07 pm 
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Cybershadow,

thank for the reply regarding the identity of Mr. Bell.

With regards to the 'spat' between Xisor and myself, I believe we have resolved that issue via email and reached an understanding.

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 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:08 pm 
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Fantastic... group hug!  :D  Back to the Demiurg...

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 Post subject: The Demiurg
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:04 pm 
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Hena,

good comments,

1. this was suggested by Gotchaye as well...hmmm have to think about that, reasoning would be the heavy armour, yes?

2. Understand your point...but I am inclined to dislike a single formation exception to a global rule for an army...the only other example I know of where this applies is Ork Big Gunz rght? I will think on this one too, anyone else see it as thematic or problematic?

3. Give that the chassis for all MCF are 'the same' and that they are all bristling with weapons I left the stats the same. The cyclops is a long range unit, but I did equip it with some very nasty short range weapons. I did not however give the Crucible Cannons the ability to support in FF with their MW profile unlike most other melta/fusion weapons...I thought it was a fair trade off.

4. The support weapon stats are a topic for a full discussion. the profiles for Siegemasters are different that the Collectors section, and mine too are a little different. I wanted them to be somewhat different to make them worth choosing. the Tarantula is a reverse of the standard AP 5+/At 6+ infantry shot, the Thudd gun is really good at AP, while the Rapier is really good at AT, with the Mole Mortar being a short range indirect nightmare.

I tried to support the Tarantula as profiled by falling back on 2nd edition WH40K where this weapon counld be fitted with any number of paired weapons...my stats are a deliberate abstraction of that function.

Incidentally I have been recieving comments requesting that the Rapier and Thudd be given AP and AT 6+ respectively...any thoughts?

5. ok...45* just looks a little odd on the board, I was trying to 'realisticly' deawith the issue of LOF, WE blocking WE, if it wasn't an issue, or if enough people don't care the whole rule could be chucked. (?)

6. You mean FF right? I was making notations with some changes from the traditional format. I thought that by putting it there it would be more clear...have to get some more feedback...eitherway it take 2 keystrokes to resolve    :;):

as far as the formating, I did my best to mimick the E:A Army and Gaming Sections, it was to purposefully get you through the background, units and then the list, just like the book...great comments, lots more to discuss. excellent :D

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