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Aircraft Sniping in E:A

 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:37 am 
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Hence the debate I have raised in the discussion thread here

IMO, while a/c remain a support to the ground action, the game retains it's original charms and balance. However where air power develops into the enabler, or worse the primary means of combat, then the "arms race" described becomes virtually inevitable. Whether this is a good thing or not is a moot point.

In mitigation, I understand that many people may play with little or no A/c, or use self-imposed limits (which are commendable) - however this does not work for tournaments etc where people inevitably want to find an edge.

OTOH thoughts on "unscrewing" the rules would be welcome. (I feel a schoolboy joke coming on) :laugh:

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Ginger

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 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:58 am 
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Quote (jfrazell @ 03 Mar. 2006 (16:33))
You're firing at the formation though as you make your pass, not after the pass.

No. 4.2.2 states that aircraft make their attacks after the approach move. In the game, aircraft do not make passes; they approach, stop, attack, and finally disengage in the end phase.


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 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:56 am 
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It appears most everyone is offended by the 'sniping' aspect of whatever the rules might allow.

As with Neal, I have not seen the tactic of an A/C passing over a number of units to utilize the limitation of weapons arc used a lot  ... or, at least, have not seen it used for sniping.

James has a strong point about the effect of firing arc limitations being the controlling factor in the tactic ... by limiting the application of the front-to-back and closest rules.

In friendly play I would look askance and suggest that sniping with A/C is not in the spirit of the game nor in the intent of the designer.  This would almost always be sufficient

But, we should get a clarification of this point for tournament play.

My opinion is that 'sniping' can be very contextual and subject to some personal interpretation ... and is difficult to legislate against.  Is this particular method so easy, heinous and has a dramatic enough impact on game results to require a 'fix,' whatever that might be?

On the broader topices, I agree we should not allow air to become a controlling factor in the game.  However, there is ample reason to have air be a strong factor in how some races fight.  You will see more air used by these races more often than other races ... Eldar and Tau are both examples of these Racial leanings in Epic.

I am reapeatedly on record that Eldar, based on Fluff, should probably be the high water mark for air.  But, other races might still deliver more firepower through some particular unit.

I do not typically use a lot of air in EA ... I use air for AA and transport primarily (except with my Tau force).  I find that a small amount of AA /Flak makes enemy air rather ineffective in EA.  When I say ineffective here, I mean that air formations which face AA/Flak in GT games may only have an impact on one turn of the game ... so it is hard for them to earn their points.  Air Assault is the exception to this rule, because delivering force to any point on the battlefield is a very valuable ... points cost be damned.  And these Air Assault Transports are more survivable in general.

I am enjoying the analysis.  What else have we missed?

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 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:21 am 
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You are slightly off with your analysis of the letter of the rules.

Take a different example. A shadowsword is in the middle of a scout formation that has surrounded it. It is not in any Zoc so shoots. The furthest away unit is the one in its front fire arc, making the 'front' of the fomration. behind it. It cannot shoot this target and can only shoot the one furthest away from itself. As this is the only 'closest potential target first' that is the one you shoot with the TK gun.

Now a unit it cannot shoot is not by any stretch of the imagination a potential target. You can extend that interpretation to ridiculous lengths (use your imagination). Your intrepetation would be correct if this was done prior to movement and it was not a move zero unit as you could line the weapon up to this target. As firing is worked out after movement its a lot simpler.

Another formation your intreptation would render tricky to attack is a line of troops in front of you. Under your intreptation if the furthest away unit was on the far left you would start shooting stuff on the right, not the closest units directly in front of you (applying to any unit regaurdless of firing arcs).

It is clear that you shoot the closest unit to you that you can actually shoot (the purpose of fire arcs is to restrict your potential targets not allow you to shoot outside them) with further hits being allocated to the next closest unit and so on.

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 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:18 am 
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As others have pointed out, in rules design there's a significant trade-off when writing rules between making them easy to learn, and making them precise and clear enough that they have unambiguous effects in unforseen scenarios.

Epic tends towards the former.  The usual style is to describe what commonly happens, then describe what happens in several special circumstances.  This creates ambiguity when novel situations arise (since there's no "underlying rule" to apply that "generates" both the common and documented special circumstances).

When enough people ask about a particular scenario, the gang who know Jervis add something to the FAQ to cover it. :-)

This is one of those gaps.  Though they describe a unit-by-unit procedure for determining which units get hit first, it's not clear whether the terms "front" and "back" are just descriptive of what you get when applying the unit-by-unit rules in the common situation, or whether they're first-class concepts in the rules and there's supposed to be a way to find the "front" of a formation in all circumstances.

But, for the record, I think it's the former.  I think "front" and "back" are just descriptions.  Epic's smooth blend of rule, rationale, description and example can make interpretation difficult, but I think it's this:

I'm underlining what I think are hard rules and italicizing what I think is rationale, description or example.

Suppressed Units: One unit that has a line of fire and is within range may not shoot for each Blast marker on the formation. Units are suppressed ?from the back to the front? of a formation, with the front and the back being determined by the location of the target formation. The units that are the furthest away from any units in the target formation are suppressed first, on the basis that troops lurking at the rear are more likely to keep their heads down than the more gung ho chaps at the front! If several units are equally far away from the target formation, then the controlling player may choose which to suppress.
.

"Front" and "back" lose any intuitive applicability when formations overlap, which is why I think these aren't first-class rule concepts.

The language in 1.9.6 is regrettably loose, since it states that hits have to be allocated to targets within range and line of fire of "the enemy".  I wish this said either a) "the firing weapon" or something like b) "any weapon on any enemy unit from the firing formation", but I'm not sure what it means.

(The latter interpretation is analogous to the rules interpretations that give you 'range stretching', but it's easy to come up with scenarios with argument-provoking results.  The former has fewer odd cases, but makes order of hit allocation important because of restrictions on "doubling up" and is slow without speed rolling.)

I play with a), with speed rolling, so in my Epic "ground attack sniping" is totally legal.  It doesn't offend me, though - it seems reasonable that aircraft would target anti-aircraft units, and this kind of positioning exposes the aircraft to as much AA fire as the defending player cares to field and position correctly.

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 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:50 am 
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Hena,

Well, that would definitely keep people from 'stopping' in the middle of enemy formations (which i think is a good thing).

May have to caveat it when it comes to air assaults... but still, I think its a compelling proposal actually.

Hmm...





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 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:55 pm 
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Very good, Hena!

As I was reading through the latter parts of the thread, it seems like the point that invalidates the "big" rules is when the a/c penetrates the formation.

Hence, if there is a clean way to prevent that from happening, then the issue ought to be addressed.

I like the simplicity of your proposal, I will leave the challenging to those who are much better at that.

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 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:48 pm 
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I think its nifty :)

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 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:20 pm 
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Restricting the aircraft from stopping in any zones of control is too broad, since then you'd be able to use scouts to protect your anti-aircraft units from ground strikes.. hardly the effect you're trying to achieve.. presumably you'd want to relate the restriction to the target formation's zones of control.

That feels right for target formations that bunch up - if you're directly overhead, you can't shoot.  But then again, some airborne weapons are bombs, so a direct overflight makes sense.  Also, this could produce odd effects for formations that are very spread out, such as scouts.

It seems far simpler if we just said that hits inflicted by flying aircraft do not have to be allocated to the closest units first.  All other restrictions still apply (for fire arcs, TK weapons, splitting fire between regular units and war machines, AT vs. AP eligible targets, etc.).

This simulates the lack of precise target selection when you're making a high-speed attack run, and it will stop aircraft from sniping AA units out of the centre of target formations.  Poorly placed AA units could still get singled out through careful use of aircraft fire arcs, but with AA units deeply intermingled, there will usually be several other targets for the defending player to allocate to first.

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 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:41 pm 
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So I could assign all the hits to gretchin?

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 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:03 pm 
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Guys

Would this also work for intermingled formations where the units of one are within the formation of the other?? (I think so, but just wanted to check)

Ginger

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 Post subject: Aircraft Sniping in E:A
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:13 pm 
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On a related note, how do people think A/c should be positioned relative to the target?

Because of the 45 degree arc rule, A/c my be placed so that their flight path actually avoids flying directly over the target. For ground attack, I have always wondered about the reasoning behind this - it's hard enough to hit something you are flying directly towards it, let alone doing some form of 'stand-off' attack.

The issue here being that this tactic permits A/c with "long range" weaponry to 'snipe' at the edge of the formation (picking on the desired target unit) but avoid the bulk of AA which may be massed inside the formation.

I suspect the arc is actually needed for AA purposes only - as some form of defence against interception etc, but it is not really needed for the actual ground attack process - or is it??

Would it be more appropriate to require A/c to end up facing the ground target they intend to hit?

Cheers

Ginger





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