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Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
Chroma
 Post subject: Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:25 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Feb. 21 2008,18:25)
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(Chroma @ Feb. 21 2008,06:25)
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And that's a mistake; it occurs no where in the "core" rules, in fact, it's specifically avoided.

That is an opinion.

Those stats came from Jervis and if Jervis thought they were appropriate then...

*SIGH* I believe that's called "an appeal to authority" and it's a logical fallacy. ?Jervis *can* make mistakes and may have not gone through the minutiae of such things.

And, no, it's not an opinion that it doesn't occur in the "core" rules, and it is specifically avoided by putting the "fire arc" restriction only on the "shooting" part of any combo weapons; I notice in the Black Legion list that the only assault weapons with the limitation are "head" weapons, on the face of it (no pun intended) it makes a certain sense to put that limit there, however, "Weapon Fire Arcs" have nothing to do with assaults, they are a restriction on "shooting" weapons.

Finally, no where in the war engine assault rules does it say a war engine can not pivot/rotate, even if based by other war engines, it only says they cannot barge such things out of the way; they, by the rules, do not appear to be "pinned" in place and should be able to bring their weapons to bear if "weapon fire arcs" do apply.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:29 pm 
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In general, I don't think there should be arcs on assault weapons, just for the sake of simplicity.  WEs are already tracking CC and FF attacks for allocation.  Do you really want to be tracking left/right/FA/FxF for them as well?  I'm sure in most cases, it would be pretty limited bookkeeping, but still...  It just seems fiddly.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:45 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 21 2008,19:35)
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I would very much not go there. WE cannot move if contacted by other WE. If they can, then they can also rotate on OW and Sustain orders. Certainly that cannot be the idea.

It says they cannot barge past them, doesn't say they're frozen; they can't counter-charge *away* from any war engine basing them, but they can "turn to face" them if necessary.  

Overwatch and sustain specifically don't allow you to move, so that's a completely different situation.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:25 pm 
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It says they cannot barge past them, doesn't say they're frozen; they can't counter-charge *away* from any war engine basing them, but they can "turn to face" them if necessary.


If you want to get all technical and rules-lawyerly, you're going to get into all kinds of semantic twists over whether "barging" is part of "charge" or "countercharge" or if it's a replacement or some other hybrid.

Personally, I think the spirit of the barging rules is WEs can ignore non-WEs but treat other WEs as normal unit-to-unit interactions.  The rules don't say that units in base contact can't countercharge away, they say there is no countercharge at all.  I would say they do "freeze" the enemy WE just like ground units are frozen if they touch.

But I still think the easiest, least fiddly way to handle it is just ignore fire arcs in assaults.  All the questions conveniently go away and I don't think it would make a difference in balance in more than 1 in 100 games.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:42 pm 
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But I still think the easiest, least fiddly way to handle it is just ignore fire arcs in assaults.  All the questions conveniently go away and I don't think it would make a difference in balance in more than 1 in 100 games.


I'm with Neal.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:47 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 21 2008,15:42)
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But I still think the easiest, least fiddly way to handle it is just ignore fire arcs in assaults.  All the questions conveniently go away and I don't think it would make a difference in balance in more than 1 in 100 games.


I'm with Neal.

Me, too.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:02 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Feb. 21 2008,20:47)
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Me, too.

Where three are gathered, there am I also...   :;):

I'll accept that as in stone.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:23 am 
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(Chroma @ Feb. 21 2008,11:25)
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*SIGH* I believe that's called "an appeal to authority" and it's a logical fallacy.


Actually its deferring to the guy that designed the game.

All of which is probably moot as...

Aside from that can you actually clarify what the hell you are talking about since there actually isn't a CC Titan weapon in the BL list that has an arc.

What version of the list are you looking at?

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:27 am 
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(nealhunt @ Feb. 21 2008,12:25)
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But I still think the easiest, least fiddly way to handle it is just ignore fire arcs in assaults.  All the questions conveniently go away and I don't think it would make a difference in balance in more than 1 in 100 games.

Does any Titan CC weapon in the game have an arc?

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:25 am 
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(Hena @ Feb. 21 2008,22:31)
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AMTL has since the arcs are in the mounts and not in weapons.

Ah. Thanks for clarifying that.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:51 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Feb. 22 2008,06:23)
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Actually its deferring to the guy that designed the game.

Sorry to argue logic, but that's *precisely* an example of an appeal to authority.

E.g. "Aristotle said it, so it must be true."

Aside from that can you actually clarify what the hell you are talking about since there actually isn't a CC Titan weapon in the BL list that has an arc.

There are no CC weapons in the Black Legion list that have fire arcs, I mentioned that the only assault weapons (as in, weapons used in assaults) were the Weapon Heads giving +2FFEA, and it made some kind of sense to think they might require a firing arc.  In fact, I mentioned that weapons with shooting attacks and "engage" attacks usually specifically omit the arc from the "engage" part of the weapon's stats.

And I think "what the hell" is a bit strong in this context.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Question on CC weapons with reduced firing arcs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:59 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 22 2008,13:40)
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(Chroma @ Feb. 21 2008,23:02)
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Where three are gathered, there am I also... ? :;):

I'll accept that as in stone.

is a bit strong too...

What's "strong" about that?  If people are saying "simplicity" is the way to go, I'll go that way without any more argument/discussion and drop the debate.

On the point is that if a formation is partially within the arc of a shooting weapon, can it still hit units within that formation if they are outside of arc?

That would, probably, be a Line of Sight issue, so you probably can't hit units outside of firing arc.

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