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Two Q's
Pulsar
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:19 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 02 2007,19:14)
QUOTE
i know it yet another speical rule for the Eldar but we need something.


With the removal of Spirit Stones, there's space for a new rule...

The only thing is... as a 3DC war engine, it could be destroyed!

The list was never designed with that in mind...

when i say DC 3 WE, i mean some kind of thing like that, so you can have a fixed number of bases/DC in contact to stop the Eldar player using it, but i serpose you could just say that in the rules for it.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:22 pm 
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'If 6 enemy units (Or 6DC's worth of War Engines) are within 5cm of the gate, the Eldar player may not use it until those enemy units have been driven off'

Or words to that effect.

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:48 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 02 2007,19:22)
QUOTE
'If 6 enemy units (Or 6DC's worth of War Engines) are within 5cm of the gate, the Eldar player may not use it until those enemy units have been driven off'

Or words to that effect.

what about this:
' the Eldar player may not use the wrathgate if 6 enemy units (Or 6DC's worth of War Engines) are within 5cm of the ?centre of the gate'

then it doesn't matter how big it is.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:53 pm 
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Seems good... if it's warranted.

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TheLimey
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:10 pm 
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I like that one as well.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:29 pm 
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As my first action as Eldar Champion, allow me to say that movement will be measured from the "middle" of the Wraithgate model and all the other rules for blocking/not blocking will be predicated on that.

I'm looking to put a poll up in the Eldar section in the near future.

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:04 pm 
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Hi Chroma, i don't think i've said it yet but congrats on becoming Eldar Army champion!!!!!!

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Ginger
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:35 am 
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(nealhunt @ Nov. 02 2007,12:57)
QUOTE
So, we are proposing that the wraithgate is siting on a base some 3-4 inches in diameter. It can be physically blocked by having contiguous enemy units right around the gate's base together with another unit on the base itself (a total of 7x enemy units?).

If one or other of these conditions is not met, then some Eldar may emerge into combat with the enemy (2x on to the base either side of the gate, and then through any gaps left by the enemy). Infiltrators may infiltrate etc.


I can't quite picture what you are talking about. ?Why would the base for a gate need to be 7-10cm across when the gate model is only ~4cm?

With respect to engaging, it only takes one unit in base contact to remove the ZoC. ?The Eldar wouldn't be forced to move 2x into base contact, just 1x, until they negated enough ZoC that the follow on units had space tht wasn't in a ZoC. ?Obviously, they could still move 2x the number into base contact if they wanted to.

The main point of contention has always been to find a viable compromise between the various options. I thought you were suggesting quite a neat mechanic to allow sufficiently large numbers of enemy to actually block the gate entirely, while permitting some of the Eldar to emerge from the gate if there were fewer. Obviously the emerging Eldar would have to engage the opposing formation(s) if the gate was covered by an enemy ZoC. (Since Chroma has pronounced, I would expect this to be defined as the centre of the gate). While I was proposing a physical mechanism, stating the principle as a number of enemy units may also work, but may need some refinement regarding physical restrictions. So perhaps something like this might work:-

"Eldar wraithgates cannot be physically blocked by opposing units 'occupying' them. However the Eldar will not use a Wraithgate, if the centre of the gate is within the Zone of Control of 7+ enemy units (or DC's worth of War Engines). For each enemy unit less than 7, one Eldar unit may emerge from the gate and engage the opposing formation.

The rules about formation cohesion only come into effect after the assault. If the Eldar win the assault, the remainder of the Eldar formation come through the gate as part of the consolidation move. If the Elldar lose the assault, any on-table survivors are automatically eliminated, hack down hits may be applied to those units still within the gate, and the remainder of the formation becomes broken."

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:36 am 
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As a simplification of the end result, why not claim the whole formation is automatically 'destroyed'? In essence, they loose the assault and flee back through the gate to escape from their enemies rather then risk being wiped out as they emerge. For game purposes they're destroyed, but fluff-wise they'd survive.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:45 am 
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(Ginger @ Nov. 02 2007,23:35)
QUOTE
"Eldar wraithgates cannot be physically blocked by opposing units 'occupying' them. However the Eldar will not use a Wraithgate, if the centre of the gate is within the Zone of Control of 7+ enemy units (or DC's worth of War Engines). For each enemy unit less than 7, one Eldar unit may emerge from the gate and engage the opposing formation.

One issue with this is scouts's ZoC could project quite far, with ample space for Eldar units to occupy during an assault, so that will be counter-intuitive.

A basic question I'd like to get an answer for: Why are people so adverse to allowing the opponent to "block" the 'Gate and require the Eldar player to use some other formation to "clear" it?

EDIT - Thanks Pulsar!

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:45 pm 
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(Chroma @ Nov. 03 2007,00:45)
QUOTE
A basic question I'd like to get an answer for: Why are people so adverse to allowing the opponent to "block" the 'Gate and require the Eldar player to use some other formation to "clear" it?

I've got no problem with wraithgates being blocked, i have always played it that way and it makes them fair on your apponent and with the Eldar if you want a Wraithgate which is more flexiable you can take a Storm Serpent!

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Chroma
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:38 am 
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Okay, I've set up a poll/discussion in the Eldar playtesting forum, please take the discussion here: Eldar blockage and how to deal with it!

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Ginger
 Post subject: Two Q's
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:22 pm 
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One of the issues here is definitions of blocking, and the timing of this. It is fairly easy for an opponent to place objectives near the centre of the table, and then in the first or second activation, to move something fairly large to occupy it. This automatically places the Eldar player at a fairly significant disadvantage because the formation in the webway usually counts for 300-400 points or around 10% of the army. Indeed, some formations can be virtually impossible to shift.

While I understand the suggestion that the Eldar should be able to attack it, the effort expended is often very significant, and while I have seen this occur a number of times, I have never seen the Eldar recover from this disadvantage.

So, I guess the issue then becomes "how easy is it to block the gate"? Eldar can only garrison with Rangers or Warwalkers, both of which are pretty fragile, so IMHO A competent opponent should be able to occupy the gate virtually any game.

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