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Ordinatus!
dafrca
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:12 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 19 2003 Aug.,09:52)
Of course the big problem is that not everyone agrees on what aspects of "realism" should be compromised or if the "playability" gained makes upon for the realism lost.

Ah and now we are going into a long argued but never agreed upon Game Design issue. How much realism is enough, or What is realism in a table top game? It is compounded when you add in Sci-Fi to the mix.

I do not even try to suggest I know the answer even for me. I go back and forth at times.  :laugh:

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primarch
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:41 pm 
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Hi!


Ah and now we are going into a long argued but never agreed upon Game Design issue. How much realism is enough, or What is realism in a table top game? It is compounded when you add in Sci-Fi to the mix.

I do not even try to suggest I know the answer even for me. I go back and forth at times.  


To make matters worse I think the answer not only varies from person to person but from the same person, time-to-time.

I think the secret is whatever is FUN. Putting a strict definition on that is impossible.

Primarch

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Tas
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:43 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 20 2003 Aug.,08:41)
To make matters worse I think the answer not only varies from person to person but from the same person, time-to-time.

Eureka- you've got it.  

The fun and enjoyment you get from a serious all afternoon wargame vs playing a quick and dirty amusing scenario with beers, even though they both may be Epic, are vastly different.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:55 am 
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Dafrca - I see your point, but I'm not saying a little realism and playability can't go together.  When we change or modify Epic rules it is to make it a little more realistic and playable, in our minds.  Like many of the "Old Timers" on this site, I've played a lot of games (since '70 !) and I can say realism and playability are compatible.  But both those qualities are in the eye of the beholder ...  and in the end, everyone should do what works for them ...  :;):

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:24 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 19 2003 Aug.,23:41)
Hi!


Ah and now we are going into a long argued but never agreed upon Game Design issue. How much realism is enough, or What is realism in a table top game? It is compounded when you add in Sci-Fi to the mix.

I do not even try to suggest I know the answer even for me. I go back and forth at times. ?


To make matters worse I think the answer not only varies from person to person but from the same person, time-to-time.

I think the secret is whatever is FUN. Putting a strict definition on that is impossible.

Primarch

I think the secret is to just go along with whatever I suggest.

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:25 am 
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I am only kidding.  I couldn't pass that one up.

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dafrca
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:29 am 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 19 2003 Aug.,20:55)
Dafrca - I see your point, but I'm not saying a little realism and playability can't go together.

Oh I did not mean to say thay can not. I just think that as others have said, not everyone agrees where the line is.

However, I also did not want to say those with real world experiance should withhold their opinions. Quite the opposite, I love when someone with real experiance offers their observations. It helps me build my own opinions.  :D

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Tas
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:57 am 
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Quote (dafrca @ 20 2003 Aug.,15:29)
However, I also did not want to say those with real world experiance should withhold their opinions. Quite the opposite, I love when someone with real experiance offers their observations.

As, I am sure, we all do.  It aids perpective and opens avenues of inquiry that may not have occured to us before.

What I do object to is having it rammed down my throat to the exclusion of anything else, because somebody saw it done a particular way a few times.  

Its so refreshing to find a group where that doesnt happen.  Friendly disagreements yes, but opinionated egotism, no. :)

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:49 pm 
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We are just a bunch of "good old boys" looking for a good time! ?

And Primarch, I agree, there will probably a minimum of "rants," with E-A. I know I'm looking forward to it.

And I'm a strong advocate of "activation." We have been using it since SM-1. And I believe that any version of Epic including E-40K would be a better game, if activation would be used, with a little modification to the basic rules. ?

But again, as I have said before, everyone should do what works for them... regardless... :;):

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primarch
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:30 pm 
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Hi!

The main reason for the ongoing flame wars in the  post-epick 40k release period was, no doubt, that there were a lot of players out there still, so as any fire, if theirs fuel it will burn.

Currently epic is such a fringe GW game (I'd call it dead, but definitions will vary on that one) that the online community for it is real small. Not only that its also become "departamentalized".

I mean we have one list for net epic, one for regular epic, no doubt someone will create another for Epic A, same things with the forums. It sort of evolved as a defense mechanism from the before mentioned "flame wars", so depending on what you gravitate to in epic you'll have a bigger or smaller presence on this or that forum. So basically epic players nowadays usually keep company with those that generally agree with their view.

You wont see them on the netepic list since we just dont care for it, you wont see it on the regular epic list becasue there is a strong epic40k element and so on and so forth.

Lets face it the ONLY place with an ACTIVE presence of all sides of the "great epic versions debate" is THIS forum and there wont be any flame war either since we get along so well. Although that doesn't mean there wont be VERY interesting discussions about it when the time comes. But it will be civil.

So its a lot more peaceful out there, but sadly its because their are less people who play epic around.

Regarding activation, that probably the best mechanic I like in Epic A, definitely a improvement. But then again for a game like that I'll just play Heresy, after all nothing beats a game you made to suit your own tastes.  :;):

Primarch

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:51 pm 
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Epic fans are small minority of G/W gamers. But we have carved out an enclave for ourselves, as you well know. We will continue to play and collect Epic using whatever version of the rules we see fit or "proxy" minis that we like. I've said this a long time ago, E-A is Epic's "last round-up." ?

We probably won't see another version come out, 3-4 years from now. That being said, G/W (& F/W) can produce a lot of great models, rules/supplements and even terrain and keep it going for many years, if they want to. ?

Even new races like the Necrons, Tau & Kroot and possibly the Demurig could be released in the future. And after all that is accomplished, we will still play it and keep it alive within our own small cells scattered all over the planet... ?:blues:

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primarch
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:04 pm 
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Hi!


we will still play it and keep it alive within our own small cells scattered all over the planet ...  


Epic players, the terrorists of gaming, spite us and beware!  :p

I just wish they ditched the "rules" effort and just crank out miniatures for the game. They've seen it can be sold this way and thus they bypass the whole "versions" thing.

I do agree Epic A is the "last round up", but if it doesn't sell.. ..well, I think you'll have to wait a "little more" tha 3-4 years. When Epic A is released in 2004 it will be 7 YEARS since the last release (epic 40k), so I think they are "subtlely" telling you want to expect if this version does not sell well.

Primarch

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:26 pm 
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Terrorist or Freedom Fighter, it depends whether you are watching CNN, Al-Jazeira, MSNBC, or FOX! :laugh: :laugh: :blush: ?

I look forward to all the E-A models. I like some of the E-A rules for Scouts, Snipers, Flak etc. I'll add those to our litany of rules, with little modification.

That's what I like about "new" rule systems, you can see what you like and don't like and use accordingly... :;):

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primarch
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:13 am 
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Hi!

Talking about rules you STILL owe us a looksy at your hybrid system..... :;):

Primarch

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Ordinatus!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:19 am 
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Still very much a work in progress... ?:( ?

I still review the E-A downloads weekly and see if there is anything we like, as I mentioned.

Plus, we have not had time to playtest anything... ?

A lot of excuses and no results... :{

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