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Playtest Question

primarch

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:44 pm

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

One of my problems is that I'm TOO decisive. I make up my mind and stand by my actions very quickly. I've learned over the years since I'm too hasty to seek the advice of others and wait a little before taking action.

Well, taking into consideration this isn't a "life altering" desicion I dont see anything real bad coming from it.

Sometimes you need to "dive in". Not all solutions are gained calmly or even logically. When you deal with people one needs to be aware that the "illogical" is quite commonplace. I think you took it pretty "mildly".

Myself? Well, I tend to look for answers after the autopsy report is in. Of course that doesn't benefit the guy on my table..... :;):

I still have faith in Jervis...

I'd say "Don't you?", but I'm afraid of your potential answer, Primarch!

Well, I tend to only have faith in the organ grinder not the monkey }:)

. Jervis is a nice guy but he's not the majority owner of GW, therefore he doesn't call the shots. He may be a respected games designer to us, but at the end of the day he's just another employee. The suits hold all the cards.

Well, it wasn't as bad as you expected, was it?

Primarch

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primarch

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:48 pm

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
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Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

Back on topic - Guys, I say let it go ... E-A will be a released in a 3-4 months and we will all be happy ! And we'll have a whole new set of "rants" !

I doubt the magnitud of the rants will be on par with what happened when epic40k was released, but I do expect a lot of " I told you so's" to be vented.

Of which 90% will eminate from me! }:)

It's so hard to be good...

When its so much fun to be bad!

Primarch

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primarch

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:52 pm

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
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Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

One time I was the GM of a group. They wanted to play Twilight 2000 and I was dumb enough to agree. The game ended because every week there was something I did wrong based on one players real life military experience. From that I realized sometimes we must ignore what we know from our real life experiences for the sake of game mechanics or even just plan fun.

A great point! Many times in game design realism must take a back seat to playability. Its a game after all and it is realy not supposed to be a simulation (although never argue that with some historical buffs).

Of course the big problem is that not everyone agrees on what aspects of "realism" should be compromised or if the "playability" gained makes upon for the realism lost.

Hard stuff to juggle.

Primarch

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Tas

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:29 pm

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Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am
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Location: Sydney, NSW

Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 20 2003 Aug.,02:00)

Tas: Are they nuclear or Diesel subs?

Collins class diesel boats. Fitted with Sub launched Harpoon and Mk 48 heavyweight torpedoes (under upgrade to ADCAP). Under consideration for fitting with Tomahawk SLCM if our government can ever make up its mind (!). Actually they are the largest diesel boats in the world as the are fitted with long range fuel tanks for endurance patrols

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dafrca

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:12 pm

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Quote (primarch @ 19 2003 Aug.,09:52)

Of course the big problem is that not everyone agrees on what aspects of "realism" should be compromised or if the "playability" gained makes upon for the realism lost.

Ah and now we are going into a long argued but never agreed upon Game Design issue. How much realism is enough, or What is realism in a table top game? It is compounded when you add in Sci-Fi to the mix.

I do not even try to suggest I know the answer even for me. I go back and forth at times. :laugh:

dafrca

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primarch

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:41 pm

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Hi!

Ah and now we are going into a long argued but never agreed upon Game Design issue. How much realism is enough, or What is realism in a table top game? It is compounded when you add in Sci-Fi to the mix.

I do not even try to suggest I know the answer even for me. I go back and forth at times.

To make matters worse I think the answer not only varies from person to person but from the same person, time-to-time.

I think the secret is whatever is FUN. Putting a strict definition on that is impossible.

Primarch

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Tas

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:43 am

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Location: Sydney, NSW

Quote (primarch @ 20 2003 Aug.,08:41)

To make matters worse I think the answer not only varies from person to person but from the same person, time-to-time.

Eureka- you've got it.

The fun and enjoyment you get from a serious all afternoon wargame vs playing a quick and dirty amusing scenario with beers, even though they both may be Epic, are vastly different.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:55 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

Dafrca - I see your point, but I'm not saying a little realism and playability can't go together. When we change or modify Epic rules it is to make it a little more realistic and playable, in our minds. Like many of the "Old Timers" on this site, I've played a lot of games (since '70 !) and I can say realism and playability are compatible. But both those qualities are in the eye of the beholder ... and in the end, everyone should do what works for them ... :;):

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Gandalf the Grey

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:24 am

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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:23 pm
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Quote (primarch @ 19 2003 Aug.,23:41)

I think the secret is to just go along with whatever I suggest.

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Gandalf the Grey

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:25 am

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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:23 pm
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I am only kidding. I couldn't pass that one up.

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dafrca

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:29 am

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Location: Burbank, CA, USA

Quote (Legion 4 @ 19 2003 Aug.,20:55)

Dafrca - I see your point, but I'm not saying a little realism and playability can't go together.

Oh I did not mean to say thay can not. I just think that as others have said, not everyone agrees where the line is.

However, I also did not want to say those with real world experiance should withhold their opinions. Quite the opposite, I love when someone with real experiance offers their observations. It helps me build my own opinions.

dafrca

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Tas

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:57 am

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Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am
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Location: Sydney, NSW

Quote (dafrca @ 20 2003 Aug.,15:29)

However, I also did not want to say those with real world experiance should withhold their opinions. Quite the opposite, I love when someone with real experiance offers their observations.

As, I am sure, we all do. It aids perpective and opens avenues of inquiry that may not have occured to us before.

What I do object to is having it rammed down my throat to the exclusion of anything else, because somebody saw it done a particular way a few times.

Its so refreshing to find a group where that doesnt happen. Friendly disagreements yes, but opinionated egotism, no.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:49 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

We are just a bunch of "good old boys" looking for a good time! ?

And Primarch, I agree, there will probably a minimum of "rants," with E-A. I know I'm looking forward to it.

And I'm a strong advocate of "activation." We have been using it since SM-1. And I believe that any version of Epic including E-40K would be a better game, if activation would be used, with a little modification to the basic rules. ?

But again, as I have said before, everyone should do what works for them... regardless... :;):

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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primarch

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:30 pm

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

The main reason for the ongoing flame wars in the post-epick 40k release period was, no doubt, that there were a lot of players out there still, so as any fire, if theirs fuel it will burn.

Currently epic is such a fringe GW game (I'd call it dead, but definitions will vary on that one) that the online community for it is real small. Not only that its also become "departamentalized".

I mean we have one list for net epic, one for regular epic, no doubt someone will create another for Epic A, same things with the forums. It sort of evolved as a defense mechanism from the before mentioned "flame wars", so depending on what you gravitate to in epic you'll have a bigger or smaller presence on this or that forum. So basically epic players nowadays usually keep company with those that generally agree with their view.

You wont see them on the netepic list since we just dont care for it, you wont see it on the regular epic list becasue there is a strong epic40k element and so on and so forth.

Lets face it the ONLY place with an ACTIVE presence of all sides of the "great epic versions debate" is THIS forum and there wont be any flame war either since we get along so well. Although that doesn't mean there wont be VERY interesting discussions about it when the time comes. But it will be civil.

So its a lot more peaceful out there, but sadly its because their are less people who play epic around.

Regarding activation, that probably the best mechanic I like in Epic A, definitely a improvement. But then again for a game like that I'll just play Heresy, after all nothing beats a game you made to suit your own tastes. :;):

Primarch

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Legion 4

Post subject: Playtest Question

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:51 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

Epic fans are small minority of G/W gamers. But we have carved out an enclave for ourselves, as you well know. We will continue to play and collect Epic using whatever version of the rules we see fit or "proxy" minis that we like. I've said this a long time ago, E-A is Epic's "last round-up." ?

We probably won't see another version come out, 3-4 years from now. That being said, G/W (& F/W) can produce a lot of great models, rules/supplements and even terrain and keep it going for many years, if they want to. ?

Even new races like the Necrons, Tau & Kroot and possibly the Demurig could be released in the future. And after all that is accomplished, we will still play it and keep it alive within our own small cells scattered all over the planet... ? :blues:

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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