Proxies for Epic miniatures. |
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.  Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:08 pm |
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Very interesting...
Humans (supposedly Traitor ?) taking on the SMs... and whacking them! ?
I like it!!! 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:24 pm |
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That's a great story.
Maybe it's because I'm Jewish, but I have a real aversion to the screwed up parts of history that GW recreates in their fantasy 40k universe. Granted that warfare is ultimately not a good thing, but GW chooses to heroify the Inquisition!?&$@!
What's the deal with that?
Massmurder, intolerance, and with hunts! They even pick the head of the "real" Inquisition and make him the lead of their "fantasy" Inquisition!
The real Knight Templars that the Black Templars are based upon are some pretty sick individuals. When the Arab world talks about crusaders, they have a real point. The crusaders basically raped and pillaged their way through the Holy Land until the wieght of Muslim arms finally pushed them back. The real story is an ugly one.
I understand that 40k is fantasy,b ut if I had my choice, I'd pick fantasy with a looser connection to real history.
I keep expecting GW to come out with Space Marine "lords" based upon Hitler and Stalin.
Already quite a few (if not all) of the GW characters are based upon true historical figures. Asmodai, for instance, was a Persian god of evil. Go figure!
Armageddon is a place straight out of the Bible / Torah!
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
P.S.
I guess having little problems like this is the price I pay for reading history books. ?
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dafrca
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:25 pm |
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| Quote (Legion 4 @ 01 2003 July,09:08) | Very interesting...
Humans (supposedly Traitor ?) taking on the SMs... and whacking them! ?
I like it!!! |
The guy who wrote that story was/is a Stargrunt fan and an ex-40k player. He said, in one post, that it was his GZG Stargrunt Platoon vs. SMs.
Either way, it was so close to what Stormseer said that I just had to post the link ?
Dafrca
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stormseer
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 8:13 pm |
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Lol... Thanks a lot for posting that Dafrca.... it provided a most excellent little aside for me to have a snigger at.... 
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dafrca
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:40 pm |
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| Quote (stormseer @ 01 2003 July,12:13) | | Lol... Thanks a lot for posting that Dafrca.... it provided a most excellent little aside for me to have a snigger at.... ? |
I'm glad you liked it
dafrca
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dafrca
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:44 pm |
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| Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 01 2003 July,09:24) | | Maybe it's because I'm Jewish, but I have a real aversion to the screwed up parts of history that GW recreates in their fantasy 40k universe. |
Nah, I do not think it has anything to do with your being Jewish. I'm not Jewish and that same issue has always bothered me as well.
I walked out on a D&D campaign because the DM wanted us to take part in the crusades. Real places, names, etc. I told him no thanks.
I do not like when games set in "fantasy" worlds have real world religions. I did not like it when in a game of Traveller the GM told me my character was a heroin addict. I told the GM no. Bottom line, I like to keep my History and my "fantasy" seperate.
dafrca
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:03 am |
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Well Maksim,
I understand your concerns, being a fan of history. I, too, see many bitz of history mixed in with G/W's fluff. It shows that they are somewhat well read and probably think that most of the guys playing their games would not know much about history, unless they read about it in a comic book!? ?
That's one of the reasons I don't play historical games anymore... too much reality. Being a former grunt... well... let's just say my perceptions about warfare are skewed.
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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TuffSkull
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:46 am |
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| Quote (Legion 4 @ 02 2003 July,06:03) | Well Maksim,
I understand your concerns, being a fan of history. I, too, see many bitz of history mixed in with G/W's fluff. It shows that they are somewhat well read and probably think that most of the guys playing their games would not know much about history, unless they read about it in a comic book!? ?
That's one of the reasons I don't play historical games anymore... too much reality. Being a former grunt... well... let's just say my perceptions about warfare are skewed. |
I dont think it neccessarily has much to do with being particularly well read. I am well aware that many of the guys at GW are, but at the end of the day it's just easier to re-write history and nick the bits you want than trying to come up with something totally original. Thats certainly what I've found whilst writing my own game's (extensive) history. Even things like coming up with names can be hard work. You try picking 50 character names without any of them linking to history in some way - there's very few that dont crop up in some form in some period or another.
I agree entirely that fantasy should be well separated from history, but when the world becomes full of events, and thousands of characters, inventing all new material can be a real chore & if you have to churn it out, resorting to history can seem like the easy way out to get the job done so I have some sympathy for them._________________ Cheers, Paul "TuffSkull" T. http://hobbybrush.com - My New Website, with thousands of painted Mini Pics :) http://hobbybrush.blogspot.com - My Hobby Blog TuffSkull's notepad- My Old Blog on Wargames Wiki.
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dafrca
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:58 pm |
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| Quote (TuffSkull @ 02 2003 July,02:46) | | You try picking 50 character names without any of them linking to history in some way - there's very few that dont crop up in some form in some period or another. |
Here is why I do not feel sorry for them. The point for me is not that they have an Abe Lincoln or a John Paul in their background. I agree names are often used that are real names. It is the next step they take that I do not like. Abe Lincoln is the leader of their world and John Paul is the leader of their fictional church.
I do not have an issue that the borrow a small part of History to help with their background. It is the massive amounts of the negative parts of history combined together and presented in a heroic light that is the real issue for me.
The examples Maksim used are good ones because they hit the same button for me. OK, you need some great evil to sweep the world, an Inquisition could be that evil. But to make them the "good guys" and leave in the massmurder, intolerance, and assasinations. Then sell this twisted reflection of real history to 10 to 15 year olds who will not know any better?
OK enough for now. I'll go back to the happy dafrca now.
dafrca
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 3:58 pm |
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Well when I said, they were well read, I was being magnanimous !!!
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 4:07 pm |
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>> OK, you need some great evil to sweep the world, an Inquisition could be that evil. |
I agree. ?I liked the fact that the Empire suffered from the same horrid oppressive conditions as Dark Ages Europe. ?I have been disppointed at the "lightening" of the atmosphere.
>> But to make them the "good guys" and leave in the massmurder, intolerance, and assasinations. |
Are they presented as the good guys? I'm asking because I haven't read any of the new background stuff. Given the trend to less dark or questionable background, I can certainly believe they were presented that way.
In the older material, I seem to recall Inquisitors were universally feared. Even Marine Captains would bend after a few not-so-subtle phrases questioning their loyalty. They were fanatical, loyalist, uncompromising uber-fascists who felt justified in destroying entire planets rather than suffer a demonic cult to exist.
They would make good anti-heroes as the older version. There is something in the human psyche that is drawn to absolutes like that. Examples abound in politics and literature.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 4:21 pm |
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The difference between the Imperium and Chaos is like Hitler and Stalin or maybe Mao.
With evil vs. evil it's easier to justify Total War, fought by rabid fanatics.
But for the most part, when you're playing the game, it's more about tactics and techniques than fluff, at least in my mind.
Yanks, Limeys, Krauts, Nips or Orks, Eldar, Tau & Bugs, it's all the same.  ?
Just roll the dice!?
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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dafrca
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 4:36 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 02 2003 July,08:07) | >> But to make them the "good guys" and leave in the massmurder, intolerance, and assasinations.
Are they presented as the good guys? ?I'm asking because I haven't read any of the new background stuff. ?Given the trend to less dark or questionable background, I can certainly believe they were presented that way. |
Neal,
You have raised a good point. Maybe I see them as being treated more as heroes because I have been around for so long. I wonder how someone who is just entering the whole GW/40k thing sees things. I may be making too many assumptions.
Dafrca
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- Cities of Death, page 59
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:05 pm |
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Borrowing Historical Themes vs. Borrowing History Outright!
Here is why I do not feel sorry for them. The point for me is not that they have an Abe Lincoln or a John Paul in their background. I agree names are often used that are real names. It is the next step they take that I do not like. Abe Lincoln is the leader of their world and John Paul is the leader of their fictional church.
I do not have an issue that the borrow a small part of History to help with their background. It is the massive amounts of the negative parts of history combined together and presented in a heroic light that is the real issue for me.
The examples Maksim used are good ones because they hit the same button for me. OK, you need some great evil to sweep the world, an Inquisition could be that evil. But to make them the "good guys" and leave in the massmurder, intolerance, and assasinations. Then sell this twisted reflection of real history to 10 to 15 year olds who will not know any better? |
Dafrca certainly understood where I'm coming from. I understand Tuffskull's aside that it's hard not to have similar details to real events, but it IS possible and even manageable for talented and capable fiction writers.
I think the biggest difference between shoddy unrespsible work and a work of art is how much they borrow from historical "reality." Borrowing a historical theme is almost inevitable. The Greeks after all codified much of the complexity of human interaction into their theatre system and their mythology is nothing, but amazing. Authors today like David Drake borrow heavily from Greek and roman mythology among other mythologies such as Norse mythology.
The Jews provided an ethical system that is amazing, the Talmud is a system by which to classify any action and determine whether it is ethical. I'd much rather see an Empire with a truly good king (or at least one that has some kind of positive character) and specified goals rather than a dead vampire psychopath with fanatical followers. Almost all authors in the "West" use modified Judeo-Christian ethics in their writing.
?
Under my argument so far, I'm spelling out that it's nearly impossible to completely avoid history because history is humanity. It's who we are. What can be avoided however is the same details and mistakes that have already been made. Comparisons are fine, but rote recitation of detail isn't. I want new names and new situations. Granted that much of GW's rgurgitated history is new to their target audience of very yung people, but for us older folks, we want something of lasting value. Explore something new and, yes, I do expect quality entertainment if I'm both paying for and supporting it.
However, essentially, I don't really have a problem with GW openly borrowing history as long as they don't choose to reppeat the same sorry mistakes that I don't want to see repeated in history like the Inquisition or the Holocaust. Don't forget the past, but, for the Lord's sake, don't repeat the worst of it, please! ?
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures. Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:04 pm |
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Well literature, movies etc. are full of reccuring themes from the Greek tragedies, English literature, legends, myths etc. ?Good vs. Evil is generally universal. ?After WWII, the Western World said, never again. And because of this my "Battle Brothers" are, along with many other counties' forces, deployed around the world. Epic has lightened up it's take on the dark future of man, but as I said before, when playing the game the "fluff" means little ... 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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