Ok, after trying to help out new epic player with his chosen army (BAs) we are struggling. Admittedly we only have had half a dozen games, but to be honest they really do seem a bit pants. Not unreasonably, my friend wants to play BAs with hoards of assault marines but it just doesn't seem to work. Can any one help or is the list just a bit under powered (and need a tweak maybe)?

The issues I have are two fold but come to the same problem : the death company and 6 strong assault formations are still not as good as terminators.

Even at 6 strong the assault marines just don't seem to have the punch or numbers to take on big targets. The DC are pretty good, but again, I'd take terminators every time. It's particularly a issue as they are a obligatory points sink. Tbh fearless sounds ideal for them, and presumably why they cost so much, but actually it makes them a super tough unit to finish off but not the glass hammer shock troops they are supposed to be.

Combined its a crippler - mounted in a thunder hawk, with no 4 man formations to take to fill up slots both just struggle to hit hard enough ( compared to, for example, an eldar aspect host in a vampire.)

But I think in honesty it's a wider issue.

We looked at using the codex list with double 4+4 assault units with a chaplain and captain. But at 450pnts, they are still nothing like as good as terminators for 400 inc a chaplain.

I use assault marines in my codex lists regularly, but always as skirmishers and objective grabbers, never as front line assault units. Surely BAs are where the assaults should come into their own?

But is it a case that assault marines are too poor or that terminators are too good?

You've nailed it with the last question imo, assault marines aren't good enough and terminators are a good deal for the points.... marines in general tend to suffer from having small numbers of high quality attacks, sure they hit on 3's but there are only 4 of them....

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I think assault marines are fine, for me it's more a case of picking the right target for their abilities.

You don't have to have every T/Hawk fully loaded, there are usually targets that 4 assault marines can deal with easily enough.

You also need to plan for the following turns and pick targets where the attackers could have another target near enough to assault next turn. Also for air assaults try using the odd captain instead of all chaplains and try setting up following turn combined assaults after the initial attacks have gone in, hard to pull off but very satisfying when it works.

If you are set on attacking big formations or you find you have to for it to affect the game then use the landing craft.
12 Assault marines can base contact enemy over a large area when jumping out of a LC and a Blood Angel DC and a Terminator formation brought in by a LC is scary as **** and should hold its own against most targets.

Hi Dptdexys,

Sure, assault marines have their uses in Codex, and though i think internal balance is tipped a little too much towards Terminators (surely if a unit has paid its points for their teleport ability, it says something when they are still the best thing to put in a thunder hawk too ! ) but in BA, assault and the DC should be their mainstay.

We did think about 2x BA assault in a landing craft, with DC in TH for a full on assault list, but TBH hes a new player and doesn't want to break the bank with getting hold of the model, and none of the proxies appeal to him. Also, another friend plays Spolfs and he likes a LC in his list - but to be honest it gets a bit repetitive when the game is decided by the result of one uber air assault every time...

Doesn't help that hes not keen on the idea of drop podding either. But this is kinda my issue with a few of the lists - surely list should be able to make 4/5 distinctly different and viable builds (like the main Codex, BT E, Ork etc) ? Lists like BA, Ulani, etc seem very railroaded down one path.

I think upping the assault formations to 8 units might help in BA in order to fill a TH effectively. Though maybe adding back in devastators (perhaps at a slight cost surcharge) or giving flexibility to use 4 or 6 strong tacticals might help ?