If we go through with seige rules, then maybe they (ie tarantulas, rapiers etc) can show up there.

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A note of caution - SHT company with ATSKNF would be a horribly powerfull formation. Virtually impossible to supress, it would just need to roll forwards and dominate the middle of the battlefield. While that may be in character, I would suggest trying it out first.

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@ Ginger- good point.  That is one reason why SHT are included solo in the list with the possibility of upgrading with one more tank.  If that is deemed too powerful, ill try solo SHT's

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"Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth; it is wise and terrible."
-Spider Jerusalem

ATSKNF is IMO quite problematic. At that time traitors and loyalist fought with equal vigor, so why that big difference in reaction to BM?

I actually would go with TRC. Drop ATSKNF and up the formations. I definedly want to see Land Raider company, without it SM Legion is just Chapter. Big marine formations are definedly what Epic Feeling of Heresy needs!

I would actually take Black Legion (minus demons and other chaos things of course) as base to SM Legion, not Codex Marine Chapter

Fluffwise marines fight as Legion, so they have faith in their numbers.

10 000 years can make huge difference in armies. Traitors did not lose their ATSKNF when they rebelled, they just did not develop it as their fellows whose Legions were disbanded and made in to Codex Chapters.


Unfortunately as it is now, this just seems like some SM Chapter what just has SHT. Nothing screams HERESY!

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Especially for those who used to play 1st ed (well that screamed details, but the force org screamed heresy ).

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I still think that ATSKNF whould stay for the loyalists... it just feels right for me, as I don't think the Legion list should be that different from their post heresy counterparts. The main arguements in its favour, at least as I am concerned, are:
1. It provides an easy way to differentiate between the Traitor and Loyalist lists. As the Traitors still had access to the same equipment, fought in the same formations etc, it prevents the Traitor list just being 'loyalists plus deamons' and gives them an individual feel.
2. Seeing that the plan is to base this at the Siege of Terra, ATSKNF feels like a good way to represent the stoic determination of the Loyalists. They were massively outnumnbered, fighting to protect the Emperor and Holy Terra itself, and knew this was their last chance to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Unlike the Traitor legions, they knew that if they failed to hold the line there was noone else to step into the gap... they had to fight to the last man or all was lost. In contrast, the Traitor forces had the overconfidence of a massive superiority in numbers, the belief that if they didn't get the job done there were plenty of other troops that could (witness Fulgrim and his legion departing the siege to attack the civilian population), and in general the belief that it was only a matter of time before the walls would fall and victory would be theirs.
3. While I agree that the Traitors should feel like they are fighting with similar vigour, i feel perhaps a different methood of representing it would be appropriate... something that gives them a more agressive feel perhaps. Keeping their Initiative and Strategy Rating the same as the Loyalists, but maybe the ability to ignore BMs while making action tests, or a bonus for engage/double actions in a similar way to Orcs, might be possibilities to represent this. More aggressively determined compared to the stubbornness and refusal to be supressed that represents the Loyalists.  

As far as the need for larger formations, I agree that this would help contribute to the Heresy feel. I think for dev/assault formations the option to add 2 stands is probably sufficient. However, a good option would be the ability to take larger formations of Tactical marines, Land Raiders and Predators... it just feels right that these units should make up the core of Heresy era armies. Maybe these units could be selected as detatchments (the current size) or as a larger formation, say 10 Tanks/tactical units. This would enable tank copmpanies and nice chunky formations of tactical marines and help give the list that 'heresy' look.

You've never played with 10 strong Land Raider companies have you? With ATSKNF they just don't break and cost a fortune. One advantage of having marines vs marines without ATSKNF is you can have a lot of guys on the table without the epic system breaking. Likewise large formations of tacs (try the Black legion list with its 12 + 6 Rhino formations). Still if you wanted marines with ATSKNF vs traitors with traitor guard and demons it would be two different sides, still a bit of a one trick pony though, and with ATSKNF theres little incentive witht e activation requirements of Epic to go beyond a certain size. Currently all the large formations are used in current lists, how would you make yours stand out?

witness Fulgrim and his legion departing the siege to attack the civilian population

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You've never played with 10 strong Land Raider companies have you? With ATSKNF they just don't break and cost a fortune. One advantage of having marines vs marines without ATSKNF is you can have a lot of guys on the table without the epic system breaking.

Yeah, about 800 points, not a very good formation though firepower wise, just hard to break.

Which means you don't take those formations as your activation count is awful. A problem for marine lists that encourage larger formations.

Not sure what you mean... the current 'Codex' marine list has relatively small formations, as do other marine lists. Other armies have larger formations but lack the Marines special rules and so on. So surely a marine list using their units and special rules but with larger formations would stand out enough from other available lists? I don't think it needs to be that different anyway, it should feel similar at least to the current codex list.

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So there is already a ATSKNF list with a precedent for large infantry formations? Interesting. What are peoples overall impressions on how well it works?

In a way it seems appropriate that a Legion list shares some similarities with the BT, seeing as with their large formations etc they fight more like the SM Legions anyway. And the Legion list would still include options for cheap formations to help prevevent being out-activated (Assault marines, bikes, speeders, scouts) - armies could include one or two large formations as 'hammer' units and still afford to support them with plenty of smaller detatchments. Perhaps one idea would be to make a large tactical formation a 1+ choice to ensure armies include at least one or two large infantry formations.

They suck like brand new Dyson cleaners. In all the lists you are often better off with the normal size tactical formations, unless its assault marines or extra devs in which case 6-8 is quite good. Fits in a thunderhawk and assault marines get creamed on the ground otherwise, rarely lasting as a decent force beyond the first assault.

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General Plumer, 191x

Surely its just a matter of pricing them right? After all, people seem happy to take the 'big' formations with the Ork list... surely a similar discount system would make them viable? For example, a tactical formation of 12 stands + transport for 550? Similar price to an aspect formation in wave serpents, and there doesn't seem to be a problem for Eldar incuding such formations in a balanced list with a competitive number of activations.

As for large armoured formations, there does seem to be a potential problem considering the prohibitive price. I'm tempted to leave them as is for the moment and concentrate on trying to get the infantry right.

My initial thoughts on the Stormbird are to make it equivalent to the Landing Craft, but without the ability to carry vehicles (they certainly don't carry them in the background). So something like:

Type: WE/AC
Speed: Bomber
Armour: 4+
CC: 5+
FF: 3+
Weapons:
2 x Assault Cannons: AP5+,AT5+,AA5+ FxF
2 x Underwing Battlecannons: AP4+,AT4+ FxF
2 x Underwing Rockets: AT4+ FxF
1 x Nose Autocannons AP5+, AA5+ FxF
Notes: DC 4, Planetfall, Reinforced Armour, Fearless, Transport
Critical Hit Effect: The Stormbird’s magazine explodes, destroying the Stormbird and anybody on board. Any units within 5cms of the Stormbird suffer one hit.
Transport: May carry 12 of the following units: Space Marine Tactical, Assault, Devastator, Scout, Bike, Terminator or Dreadnought units. Terminators and Dreadnoughts take up two spaces each.

The weapons are based on the descriptions in the HH Novels. The transport capacity seems about right going by the background, plus it means they can carry a full large tactical formation of 12 stands, or the assault/dev combo if both of them are upgraded with 2 extra units. As for pricing, that would probably mean pricing it slightly above the Landing Craft I would imagine... more heavily armed but without the ability to carry tanks etc. Thoughts?

I am going to have a go at this list over the weekend. Just a question on upgrades: Is it 1 upgrade allowed per formation? My guess is yes eg: I take assault and can only have 1 assault upgrade to get a formation of 6.

Is there any foreseeable reason why you could not take 2 assault upgrades to get an 8 stand formation for say, assault and dev or 10 man for tactical? Or maybe even add the assault or dev upgrade to the tactical formation giving a more heresy feel to the list, almost similar to the eldar aspects.

D.

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I'm not sure about mixing tacs devs assault together, but I do think maybe allowing up to four assault or devs as an upgrade to their respective formations might be ok. I'm more keen to see large tactical formations though. Maybe you could try a 12 unit tactical formation at 550 and see how it performs?

Ok managed to get a huge game in last night. Heresy Marines vs Orks 5k approx. Was also an introductory game for 2 players and we played 2v2 with 1 vet on each side. The list I used was a modified one from first post on thread. List is here. Some changes made are in red.

Tactical were upped to 10 stands, Ass and Dev maxed to 8. Rest was kept as J0k3r/Red Sorceror came up with.

What I found was that the fragility of marines was lost. I had no fear of taking hits, especially when we had 5 formations of 10 tacticals. I think that my changes were a bit OTT and by limiting to 1 upgrade for tact/ass/dev may bring it back inline.

Alternatively if we had played marine on marine then the advantages we had over the orks would have disappeared and the lists would have been balanced. Possibly also lose ATSKNF because it takes some serious firepower to break a 10 man tactical formation!

Anyways, onwards and upwards.

D.

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