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Space Marines Scouts and Snipers |
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berman332
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Post subject: Space Marines Scouts and Snipers  Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:34 am |
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:39 am
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Location: campbell, ca
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As for the space marines, there is something I don't understand. In particularly all armies, scouts and snipers are considered to be elite units. The US Marines, the closest real life unit to the Space Marines, have snipers in their most elite unit, Marine Force Recon, who are an elite scout unit as well as an elite tinfantry unit. Yet, with the exception of the Space Wolf chapter, scouts and snipers are considered to be the least experience unit. Even in the Imperial Guard, scouts and snipers are considered to be an elite unit even though most of their infantry units are considered to be inferior to the Space Marines, the only exception are Ogyrns, Snipers, Stormtroopers, and mechanized infantry units which are at least equal to the Space Marines infantry units.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Space Marines Scouts and Snipers Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:16 am |
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Location: Ohio - USA
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Yes, again, G/W's grip on military subjects is lacking ! Scout/Snipers are highly trained troops and not "newbies"/Boots ... And I guess the USMC is the closest to SMs ... Where the Army is closer to IG, IMO. However, all infantry units I've been in had some Sniper trained infantrymen is their Bn Scout Plt. and in the line infantry units. The Russians had one Sniper with an SVD or FBK per plt. In the ROK it was critical for our DMZ missions. And in my Mech Co., at Benning, I had troops who went to Sniper Training, but had no actual Sniper Rifles as in the ROK. We hoped to get Sniper Rifles (M21s) or Scopes for their M16s (not the best Sniper Rifle !) ... And in the 4 infantry Bn I served in 10? years, many, especially, the Officers were Parachute, Air Assault, Ranger, and a few Pathfinder quailified. So my point is, I guess ... the term "elite" covers a lot of ground. The USMC, US Army Rangers, 82d ABN and 101 Air Assault were all considered "elite" ... But clearly the SM Snipers should be considered "elite" ! Again, G/W drops the ball ... 
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Charad
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Post subject: Space Marines Scouts and Snipers Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:22 am |
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Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:59 pm
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Location: Finland
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That is one reason I dislike marine scouts, even all marines are elite compared to IG troopers, so they are just newbies as space marines...
Only real scout is eldar ranger... 
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Antipodean Ork
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Post subject: Space Marines Scouts and Snipers Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:36 am |
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Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:59 am
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Location: Brisbane
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Way back in the RT days I think the designers were looking for a perjorative for junior marines so they used the term 'scout' in a 50's sitcom "My Three Sons" kind of way "Hey scout" instead of "Hello son".
Of course, that does not excuse the current usage, which tries to conform to military use but still retain the nonsensical "scouts are half a marine but get to do the toughest sneak and peek jobs"
Andrew
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Space Marines Scouts and Snipers Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:05 am |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA
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Yep, it's pretty - Dumb to most of us ! 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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orangesm
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Post subject: Space Marines Scouts and Snipers Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:54 am |
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Location: Greater Los Angeles Area, CA
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I think that having the junior marines being scouts does make some sense.
They are not full fledged Space Marines, so they are lighter, more fragile. This means that making a tactical withdrawal is permitted. They learn how to engage in basic tactics against similar light forces and the like.
Yes it does not make sense if you consider Space Marines to be the standard Imperial force. This is not the case however - that is the Guard and where real life parallels are best drawn.
Space Marines are supposed to operate as awesome shock troopers, experts at lightning warfare with a focus on paralyzing the enemy. The use of junior troopers as scouts also arises out of need for the marines. All the other Marines are to be used in the shock and awe strikes, the junior troopers get to watch the enemy and learn how to analyze them.
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J0k3r
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Post subject: Space Marines Scouts and Snipers Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:02 pm |
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Location: Edinburgh, UK
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O ompletely agree with what OrangeSM says. I think that the best description of how marine scouts fight and the ethos behind them has to be the Ian Watson Space Marine book.
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Lord Inquisitor
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Post subject: Space Marines Scouts and Snipers Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:22 pm |
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The other thing you need to remember is that being a Scout is a rite of passage for the Space Marines. They are given the toughest and most dangerous missions so that they can prove themselves.
They are also lead by very experienced veterans.
A lot of stuff the Space Marines do doesn't make a lot of sense in purely martial terms, but much more in terms of honour and valour.
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Space Marines Scouts and Snipers Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:07 pm |
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There's also one other thing to remember: While the Scouts do typically travel ahead of the ground-based Space Marine forces, think about what the Space Marines do from a tactical engagement standpoint. The majority of Space Marine attacks begin with air-assaults and drop pod assaults directly into enemy controlled area, usually through heavy AA attacks. The Scouts have the job of identifying enemy positions and catagorizing where those assaults should go. In effect they probably have the LEAST lethal portion of an initial marine assault in that the tactical marines and terminators will be droping directly ontop of enemies who are already entrenched and defending their positions. They lack the heavy power armor of marines which allows them to move across terrain which their brethren would find difficult to navigate quietly, and even a basic Scout is comperable in training to the elites of the IG. From a standpoint of 'what function do they play, how lethal is their mission?' it makes reasonable sense. Although it is significantly different then real world militaries.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Space Marines Scouts and Snipers Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:13 pm |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA
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Yes, gentleman ... I see your points ... And we can "rationalize" and make "excuses" if you will, for G/W's Fluff, all we like/want. But again ... it comes down to this ... again ... DWWFY !  
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Space Marines Scouts and Snipers Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:04 pm |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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I think it mostly comes down to thinking of the Space Marines versus SM Scouts in terms of "equipment." SM Scouts don't have all the implants and organ grafts yet. They are AFV's compared to the full-sized tank of a "fully grown" space marine.
Basically, the Scouts are lighter gear, represent less of an investment of resources and are therefore more expendable.
If you're sending out scouts for an armor division, you don't send out Abrams. You send out the cav guys in Hummers and Bradleys. Even though you could outfit MBT's with all the recon gear than you can put on "normal" recon vehicles, it's not efficient either in terms of risk to valuable assets or required levels of support for them to operate in that fashion.
Besides, regardless of whether we think it makes sense from our viewpoint, the SMs are almost completely dogmatic in their adherence to "the way it should be" as stated in the Codex. They may be taught to be tactically flexible in the moment but they are very rigid in regards to broader organizational thought.
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Neal
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