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Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis

 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:46 pm 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
In regard to fixing up the EC list, well, that could be a problem. Still. You'd seem to be stuck with that no matter what.


I have been thinking about this as the replacement for Fearless for the EC:

Ecstacy: All the Fearless rules except enemy models must move more than 15cm away from the enemy after being broken.

This would start to fix Fearless for me in a big way. Get's rid of the denial aspect.

What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:36 am 
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If you want it from a history point maybe the Raven guard would be a good foe.

>:D


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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:00 am 
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Blish wrote:
If you want it from a history point maybe the Raven guard would be a good foe.

>:D


?

Blish

Where is that history?


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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:08 am 
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I will need to find the name of the book, its in my work car and I am meant to be doing my Major Assignment not trolling on here.

Anyway the Raven Guard and two other chapters who I can't remember right now fought against the World Eaters and the Iron warriors.

As a result the Raven Guard lost well over 80% or 85% of there legion and the Primach of the Raven Guard was well "shit scared" or Angron.


Last edited by Blish on Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:14 am 
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Blish wrote:
I will need to find the name of the book, its in my work and I am meant to be doing my Major Assignment not trolling on here.


Aha! I always said you never worked at work. Now I have my first bit of info to help me build my case :)

Thanks for that dude


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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:29 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
[I don't think anything really pins the incident down in time - it's not current, but that's about it.


I went looking and found this little tidbit of deductive reasoning:

Quote:
Skalalthrax happened after the Horus Heresy when the Chaos legions fled into the EoT. Im prty sure of this because neither EC or World Eaters had broken up yet and are still Legions. After this fight the WE are broken up.

More proof of Skalathrax being before (WAY before probably 8-9000 yrs) is that Angorns invasion of Armageddon was beaten by Space Marine/Imp Guard forces commanded by Logan Grimmar. He is/was the "Great Wolf" (space wolf commander.) Wikipedia has him listed at like 700 yrs old so the 1st World Eater invasion had to have happened in the last 700 yrs. Probably the last 500 since it would take at the very least 200 yrs to rise to "Great Wolf"


No idea if it is still current to GWs ever changing history and the new Space Wolf book out.


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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:33 am 
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In building the World Eaters and getting everything ready for a supplement, I found all this info out quite a while ago after hours of net searching. I believe it is as accurate as it can be in an ever changing GW universe:

- Remember, these are only Imperial records. They would not cover everything.

**********************

Timeline

Unknown - World Eaters cause the slaughter on Arrigata (no discernable change from pre-heresy Legion other than aggression)

007.M31 - Istvaan III Assault (no discernable change from pre-heresy Legion other than aggression)

014.M31 - Horus Heresy Assault on Earth - World Eaters in their full Old School Glory

021.M31 - Battle of Skalathrax (World Eaters cease to exist as a Legion)

444.M41 - Armaggeddon War - Angron appears with a Daemon World Army (no talk of World Eaters)*

544.M41 - Angron returns to Real Space


999.M41 - 13th Black Crusade - Defilers make an appearance

Unknown - Eclipsion Prime - Akraghar "of the World Eaters" rides Slaughterfiend


*891.M41 - Alternative date for Armaggeddon War where World Eater Marines are mentioned

**************************************

As you can see, they only existed as a 'Chaos Legion' anywhere from 14-21 years. Probably the shortest stint of a 'legion' (chaos or otherwise) in the known history.


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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:45 am 
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Blish wrote:
Anyway the Raven Guard and two other chapters who I can't remember right now fought against the World Eaters and the Iron warriors.
As a result the Raven Guard lost well over 80% or 85% of there legion and the Primach of the Raven Guard was well "shit scared" or Angron.


I went looking and found the below. Are you maybe confusing the Istvaan V massacre with what you were thinking of?

The assault on Istvaan V is as legendary as it is terrible. For the event is known as the “Drop Site Massacre” with good reason. The Raven Guard, Salamanders and the Veterans of the Iron Hands deployed in force to destroy Horus and his rebellion. With four Legions close behind them to support the effort the loyalists believed Horus would be crushed outright. However while Corax remained largely impassive and calm, and Vulkan remained in control, Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands would not be contained. When the assault began the Iron Hands surged to the attack with the Salamanders and Raven Guard forging up the flanks. The assault was costly and appeared to be succeeding when the reserve Legions arrived. When the Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers arrived and set up a fortified camp at the drop site the Salamanders and Raven Guard began to fall back to recover and regroup, but the Iron Hands would not fall back. As the Raven Guard and Salamanders reached the camp they were fired upon and the slaughter was horrendous, unprepared for the treachery of those they thought brothers in arms, the Raven Guard and Salamanders were cut to shreds and precious few escaped the killing fields. The Iron Hands were apparently killed to a man, Ferrus Mannus himself beheaded by the traitor Primarch Fulgrim.

Retreat from Istvaan was not immediate, for weeks the Raven Guard ambushed the traitors before withdrawing into the mists and mountains, the last remnants of the Legion having regrouped around Corax and the surviving senior Commanders, Alany of the Falcon Assault Companies and Agapito of the Talon Tactical Companies. Eventually the Imperial Army Praefectus Marcus Valerius and Commander Branne led an expedition to investigate the events of Istvaan and staged a lightning recovery mission to extract the hounded survivors of the Raven Guard.

Corax and the few survivors of Istvaan V returned to Deliverance. In the Ravenspire Corax brooded, desperately seeking a way to rebuild his legion, for the Imperium was on the brink of annihilation and the loyal warriors of the Adeptus Astartes were desperately needed, but the Raven Guard had none to supply. Delving into ancient lore, dating back to the advanced genetic processes used to create the first enhanced warriors that pacified Terra, Corax found ways to accelerate the creation of Space Marines and produce them at an astonishing rate. However the processes were also extremely dangerous and warned that terrible monsters could result. Nevertheless Corax was out of options and desperate to rebuild his forces. With a heavy heart Corax gave the order to the Apothecaries.


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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:02 am 
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Quote:
I have been thinking about this as the replacement for Fearless for the EC:

Ecstacy: All the Fearless rules except enemy models must move more than 15cm away from the enemy after being broken.

This would start to fix Fearless for me in a big way. Get's rid of the denial aspect.

What do you think?


My knowledge of the EC list is very, very tiny. It just looks like almost all the available options for lists to fight the World Eaters need at least some revision in order to be workable, and the EC look like the most interesting list of the lot. :P

Why not give them They Shall Know No Fear, which references their former status as, well, the Emperor's Children beautifully and still makes them appropriately tough? Twould be both awesome and twistedly ironic, both fully appropriate sentiments for the sons of Slaanesh.

Blish appears to be referring to Istvaan - that's the only battle I can think of where three legions fought the World Eaters and Iron Warriors and took such casualties.

This points to either soon after arrival in the Eye (according to C:CSM 2e) or M37.

Keep in mind that the Legions only arrived in the Eye after the Scouring, which took seven (or more) years after the Siege of Terra, and that they only began fighting with each other after the Emperor's Children decided to raid more than just the Imperium. I'd say anything up to even a hundred years would be plausible. Maybe even more. Sometimes a millenia after an event is 'soon' in 40K. :P

What stuff in the list are you worried about justifying?

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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:30 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Why not give them They Shall Know No Fear, which references their former status as, well, the Emperor's Children beautifully and still makes them appropriately tough? Twould be both awesome and twistedly ironic, both fully appropriate sentiments for the sons of Slaanesh.


Can you imagine the S##t-storm such an idea would cause? :) I like it, however ATSKNF appears to be sacrosanct with everyone who plays Epic and having anything bar a Marine chapter with it would most likely cause fisticuffs.

I do think you are onto something there however. It may just work *goes and writes it down as part of a future project*

As for a nemesis to the World Eaters, I am very much thinking along E&Cs idea of writing up a whole different engagement and 'unrecorded as yet' history for the supplement.

I may just put any decision on hold for a few days / week while I do a lot of reading and brainstorming before making the final decision on the direction. There is no rush. I want to get it right the first time.

Thanks for the consistent input SK ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:58 am 
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Quote:
Can you imagine the S##t-storm such an idea would cause? :)


Yes. I'm getting Slaaneshi thoughts even now imagining it...

Seriously. It'd be awesome. :)

Quote:
I like it, however ATSKNF appears to be sacrosanct with everyone who plays Epic and having anything bar a Marine chapter with it would most likely cause fisticuffs.


Change the name. :P Though I like the symmetry, the effect is what matters, and I think it's certainly appropriate. Even if you don't do Skalathrax, I think it's worth throwing that idea into the EC thread sometime.

Quote:
I do think you are onto something there however. It may just work *goes and writes it down as part of a future project*

As for a nemesis to the World Eaters, I am very much thinking along E&Cs idea of writing up a whole different engagement and 'unrecorded as yet' history for the supplement.


Spoilsport. ;)

Personally, I always find an exciting account of a famous engagement more appealing. But that's me. An obscure engagement is a close second. Making something up always comes a distant third. Epic supplements also kind of cluster around two points - IG/SM variant vs. Other Force and the Modern Day of 40K. Breaking the mold a little'd be nice, IMO.

I think a supplement focused around Skalathrax'd finish off two good/important Chaos lists, draw some attention for its uniqueness, and have a lot of really sweet modelling opportunities available to it (I'd help, if no one else would. Though that may not be a good thing ;)). It has a lot of potential. Downsides include the fact that it's an old battle and you're kind of horning in a little on official events (although those events are sufficiently detailed that a lot can be deduced/filled in well).

Quote:
Thanks for the consistent input SK ;)


Hey, I was bored. :)

Good luck with the decision.

EDIT:
Found your earlier comment re: Hrothqar Furior (or whoever). The BT aren't even close to Codex, but that also looks like it could be interesting. Could do a fairly interesting campaign about the WE quest to unlock the power of the Monolith or something. I like Skalathrax more, but this has some potential as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:26 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
I think a supplement focused around Skalathrax'd finish off two good/important Chaos lists,


...and this would be my main reason for tackling Skalathrax. Two projects in one foul supplement :)


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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:01 pm 
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Hiya,

On the original subject question, recently in an old white dwarf ( 120 somthing I think ) I saw a really cool picture of a World Eater marine with the backdrop of a fortress in the background and a mean looking squat gritting teeth back at him.Such a cool image.Do you know the one ? I can go to the shelf of knowlege and dig the edition out if you like.
So yeah, WE's v's Squats but get this....

Really Angry squats attacking WE's !

No back up sept that picture I'm afraid, sept the knowlege that squat regiments fought in the Heresy.Maybe a stronghold/brotherhood holding a really reaaaly long grudge ?

You know what those space dwafs are like ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:02 pm 
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I think the Squats are alread planned for Epic: Xenos by Moscovian and Co., though...

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 Post subject: Re: Dominion of Fire - Help me with a nemesis
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:16 pm 
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I think I know the pic or something similar

The squats were a serious consideration, yet not with any of the lists that has been produced on Taccoms so far.

In any event, I decided to go with the epic battle of Skalathrax and pit the World Eaters against Emperor's Children.

At present there is some downtime to allow the Chaos Champ to get things into order and prepare for a freeze on all the lists. Both the World Eaters and Empereor's Children have been forwarded for review. Empereor's Children has already been released and can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=82&t=18298

The World Eaters has yet to be looked at before being released. Give Steve54 some time with his other stuff and it will then be out in no time.

Judging by the armies I have made on paper so far, there ought to be some epic (excuse the pun) battles between these two forces. :D


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