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The "What should each list feel like" - thread

 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:03 pm 
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Hi Guys

I was working through many lists in the last few month. For some lists, I saw a design-line through the list. The designer(s) wanted to give some flavor to the list and had some nice ideas. But most of the lists are simply a summary of previous army list entries with some uber-additions which "feel" right (like quad layered toilet paper feels "right" over single layered one). Anoying to read, because it gets boring. I made some thought about this circumstands and this was the summary of my weird electrochemical synapse functions:


Main question:

Is there a summary sheet which clears up some points behind an army list to give the readers an information about the thoughts and the ideas for the list designed?

So I found some questions I would like to have answered when reading a list:

* What is the feeling about the list, how should it feel if you play it
* What is supposed to be the strength of the list
 (not only FF, CC or shooting but just a litte bit more information)
* What is supposed to be the weakness(es) of the list
* Which new units are supposed to be included and WHY
* Which units are excluded and WHY
Every good list lacks something ?ncluded in the standard list.
* How do you compensate new strength and weakness compared with the original list
This point is more important than it sounds. Most list designers simply forget about this.
* Is there already background avialable, if yes, some quotings or even information where to find

My idea: The designers of the list should at least answer most of the questions above. This gives us poor testers the opportunity to think about the options included and reduces the amount of questions we have to ask to get a clue like "What the hell does he want to reach with THIS option (unit) exept creating an inbalance?!?"

So I hope I have not judged too hard and maybe some of the lists gain a nice little summary thread answering questions above  :glare:  
.......... else only my 0,0002 cents :confuse:






-----------------------------------------------------------
edit: More ideas collected out of the thread, organized by themes:

Last update: 14.09.2007

List Layout / General Information:


- What is the design theme behind the new list?

- Which armylist is the body of this new list?

- Which parts of the list are "in progress?"

- Is there already background available? If yes, some quotings or even information where to find


Playability and Style:

- What is supposed to be the strength of the list?

- What is supposed to be the weakness(es) of the list?

- How do you compensate new strength and weakness compared to the original list

- What is the feeling about the list? How should it feel if you play it? (subjective opinions and objective measures to reach the "feel")


Units:

- Which units are excluded and WHY

- Which units are excluded and WHY

- Which units are altered and WHY



General questions/ controlling the list :(for the creator. not necessarily answered in the overview)

- Are there new special rules needed? (If YES, give a GOOD reason why. Fluff is a reason, but not a good one)

- Does the army list need more than one page? (If YES, consider to discard or modify some entries) one list, one page

- Does the army list modify some general values(like Initiative, Strategy rating) of the original list? (If YES give a VERY good expanation for this. These values heavily modify the usability of your units and the point costs. If you modify here, you have to modify all your point costs, even if you use detachments from the original list)

- Do you feel some entries unnesseccary, only in for fluff? (If YES, try to bring these fluff to existing units (upgrades?) to avoid another enty)

- How would YOU ABUSE the list? Eliminate this before publishing.





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 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:36 pm 
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This is a good idea!

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 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:38 pm 
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Soren, I think you bring up an excellent point.  Design Notes are frequently absent or lacking good information.  While I don't think the lists need these notes, I certainly think they benefit from them.  In fact you've inspired me to use your questions for answering questions on each of the armies in Epic: Raiders.  Keep those biochemical impulses snappin'. :)

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 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:32 pm 
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Thanks for your feedback. ?

To be honest the idea came while I was doing a new 3000pts list out of E&C?s Minervan Tank legion.

The first thing I thought: Kay, It?s a tank List, so mainly you should include tanks......Leman Russ Tanks....so your main focus should be blasting you enemy to pieces and try to avoid getting assaulted or firefighted.

Next point, what units are never included to tank companies?...right, foot sloggers without transport.
So which units do we need, which units not?
Tank Platoon: Don?t think so, the companies are sufficient, noone will divide them further without getting C3 problems within the restrictive command hierarchy.
Scout Platoon: Don?t think so, there are scout companies for a decent price, so no need to divide them further to get cheap activations (for 100pts)
Mechanized Platoon: Good idea, even tanks need someone to hold ground, guard their rear and do all the jobs tanks are to clumsy for. And they have to be fast and the only fast transport available for our brave men are chimeras :D
You can imagine the futher process :;):
So a check for the list.

Then, how would a Supreme commander or a commissar try to lead their detachments. If I were them, I would say "Cool, this tank fits my style, so I will take it. No matter which tank it is. And please, Dear Quartermaster, I want the weapons, engine, gear and ammunition in top condition or I?ll find a nice place for you in the penal legion next door!!" So the +1 FF fits perfectly. Check for the list.

Next point: weakness. The army list has few numbers, numerous AT weapons, MW attacks and TK else very good assault units will balst your 700pts companies to pieces (and so your hope for victory). So there is a clear disadvantage against horde armies, specialized AT troops and MW-TK weapons. A clear check for the list.

Next point: Do we need the new units included? A clear NO for numerous Super heavy variants. Not every model has to fit the list, and most of the new SHT a redundant to existing ones. But a clear YES to Executioner, Exterminator and Conqueror. Many Tank Regiments use them more or less frequently( background issues), so they have a good place in this list. It also enables a bit of real fast combat using Conqueror Squadrons as fast spearhead and crossfire units.

And now an very important point: How do you compensate the lack of numbers and the specialisation to tanks in that list? E&C made a good point to slightly reduce the point costs for the single tanks. You feel "impelled" to take at least two companies for 3000pts. This bargain has to be used :;): . ?Else the numbers you normally field with a IG army are hard(impossible) to get. Mechanized Platoons cannot get upgrades and the footsloggers are a really bargain for garrisson...but not available. You will also have a activation disadvantage. Companies are expensive if you stack them with some goodies.


So my conclusion was, the list looks good, need maybe a litte tweaking here and there (like Demolisher point cost, MORE PLAYTESTING and a really good background story.

And exactly this was my intention. This should be possible to every list you generate and make public.

Else it?s worthless, because very few here have the time and nerves to pick ever list to pieces and ask dozen of questions to get a clue, what the designer initially wants.

So, you list designers out there, make our job easier and I promise we will get some lists playable sooner thanwe will get it now :blush: And, last but not least, lists are more funny to read if some informations are mixed between the dead and boring statlines :D

...else...only my 0,0002 cents

Soren





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 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:36 pm 
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"Variant SHT's are staying". :)




I'll run off your template for my other lists actually, it looks to be a good tool.

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 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:54 pm 
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DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG


What is the feeling about the list, how should it feel if you play it?

The list is designed to promote large, slow formations of Infantry, backed up with (slightly cheaper) static artillery platforms. Think of it as a tech'd-up Siegemasters with an offensive bias.


What is supposed to be the strength of the list?
Short-range shooting and firefights/engagements.

What is supposed to be the weakness(es) of the list?
AT power.
It's generally quite slow so capturing objectives is difficult (What a surprise, a WWI-style army that finds it difficult to advance!).

Which new units are supposed to be included and WHY
Death Korps Infantry - They have +1 CC rating, but also only have a Twin Heavy Stubber (30cm AP5+) attack. This mirrors their stats in 40k & their most iconic infantry heavy weapon.

Death Korps Grenediers - DK Storm Troopers don't use Valkyries, and they use Heavy Flamers rather than Plasmaguns as their distinctive weapon.

Leman Russ Thunderer - Fluffwise, this is a common vehicle in Siege armies.

Centaur - Replacement transport for Grenediers.

Heavy Mortar & Thudd Gun - The DK use these extensively.

Static heavy artillery / AA guns - Having static guns promotes the slow feel of the list.

Medusa - I'm actually going to change this to a static gun platform in the next version of the list. I expect this to be one of the last major list changes.

Gorgon Transport - This is the DK iconic transport vehicle.

Macharius Tank - This is a medium tank extensively used by the DK.

The two Variant SHTs - I firmly believe if it wasn't for inter-departmental politics, these would have been in the Steel Legion list from the start and they wouldn't be contentional. Oh and they're not broken and fluffwise they fit.

Deathstrike bunker - If the DK don't use mobile artillery, it seemed sensible that they wouldn't use mobile Deathstrike launchers either; Thus the Deathstrike Bunker was born.

Which units are excluded and WHY?

Valkyries & Vultures - The DK don't make use of fast, airborne attacks.

Ogryns - The DK don't use Ogryns.

Snipers - The DK don't use Snipers.

Chimeras - The DK don't use Chimeras.

Support Squads - This one is contentious for me. I'm vaguely thinking of including them (With 2x 30cm AP5+ attacks), and then removing ALL heavy stubber attacks from the normal line infantry. As it is, this is abstracted, but fluffwise, they're supposed to be seperate.

Sentinels - The DK don't use Sentinels.

Mobile artillery / deathstrikes / AA - The DK don't use mobile artillery.


How do you compensate new strength and weakness compared with the original list?

This list is not as good at static trench warfare as the Siegemasters, and not as good at ranged combat as the Steel Legion... it forms a happy halfway house; Jack of several trades, master of none.

Is there already background avialable, if yes, some quotings or even information where to find

Yes, I've tried to make this list highly representative of the background.

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 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:02 pm 
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MOSSINIAN REBELS

What is the feeling about the list, how should it feel if you play it
It's a de-teched siegemasters list.

What is supposed to be the strength of the list
Not moving much at all and hiding in trenches hoping the enemy will go away.

What is supposed to be the weakness(es) of the list
Pretty much the same weaknesses as the Siegemasters, only

Which new units are supposed to be included and WHY
The static Deathstrike Bunker, because it was cool.

Ogryns, to accentuate the 'stay still and hit them if they come close' element of the list.


Which units are excluded and WHY
Sappers, as the Mossinians are not experienced warriors.

All Super-Heavy tanks, as these guys are supposed to be pretty low-tech.

Mobile Deathstrike launchers.

How do you compensate new strength and weakness compared with the original list
This list offers only slight tweaks from the Siegemasters list. Note that it lacks Baneblades and Shadowswords.

Is there already background avialable, if yes, some quotings or even information where to find
All background written by me, in the 'siege of mossino' suppliment.





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 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:17 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 13 2007,21:36)
QUOTE
"Variant SHT's are staying". :)

I know, E&C I know :D

Btw, no need to do the liost anwering here, do it in the specified treads. I?m pretty sure few people will read it here :;):

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 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:51 pm 
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Soren, have you considered putting together a list of things like this for all aspects of the army list?  I am serious.  There are quite a few formats out there, but beyond wanting to see them unified it would be great if other things were done as well.  Like a rule-of-thumb sheet for army champs.

One thing I try to do is fit the army list onto a single page.  If I can't do that either it is too complex or my formatting is off.  While some armies will simply be too big to do this with, it is a good standard to strive for.

If we could get a few more things like this together it would make for an excellent wiki entry.

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 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:00 pm 
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Oh, I?m sure the questions above are only the beginning. I?m curious to read more questions like these above to describe an army list. If we think we have enough questions and hints collected, I?ll format a nice little paper to bring it online.

The One list- One page rule is a nice thing......Reading 5 pages and you do not know what you have read on the first page :D And if we as "experts" do not like to read it, how will "beginners" feel about this list?

I?ll edit my first post with your ideas. So we get a summary and you always know which questions already included. I am curious about more ideas and always willing to modify spelling. As I am not native speaker i am sure I made some errors.





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 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:38 pm 
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I think that could be a very useful tool.  I've tried to extract answers similar questions from people working on army lists but I think that a checklist-style list like that will probably be more successful at getting those points across than I've ever been.

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 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:37 pm 
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More questions that should be considered:

Is the army a Maneuver style (Codex Marines and Eldar), Attrition style (Tyranids and Baran Siegemasters), or a mix of styles (Orks and IG) fighting force?

If this is a variant of a main list and the style has changed, why?



Is the army a high speed army (White Scars Space Marines), a slow army (Baran Siege Masters), or dependent upon what forces are present (IG)?

If this is a variant of a main list and the overall speed has changed, why?



Is the army anticipated to have some large clumps of formations (Orks and AMTL), a thin spread of formations (Codex Marines), or a mix of density (Eldar and IG)?

If this is a variant of a main list and the anticipated density has changed, why?



Is the army anticipated to have more infantry, armored vehicles, artillery, aircraft, or war engines than any of the others?

If this is a variant of a main list and the variety of units has changed, why?



Is the army going to have a mostly basic units (Codex Marines), specialist units (Biel-Tan Eldar), or a mix of specialty units (IG)?

If this is a variant of a main list and the homogeniality has changed, why?



Is the command structure of the army very centralized (Tyranids and Orks), dispersed (AMTL and Codex Marines), or a mix (IG)?

If this is a variant of a main list and the command structure has changed, why?

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 Post subject: The "What should each list feel like" - thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:30 pm 
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*reactivating Thread*

After my master thesis I have time to reopen this project again. (searching for a job does not need that much time I hope :;): )

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