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ALternatives to Spirit Stones
MC23
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:10 pm 
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So we are back to Embolden as a form or transferable leadership as a possibility.

There is something else I've considered since them but never tried. This adjusts how Eldar take Blast markers instead of removing them afterwards. I want to emphasize that
I have never anything like this but it's just an indea I've kicked around after Eldar was published.

Agile
Because of Eldar's speed and grace under fire they do not recieve the automatic Blast marker for coming under fire.

I've considerd this be limited to formations shot at but not being successfullt hit (that might be too rare), shot at but no casualities (Titans become extra scary), or just flat out (really powerful, no more 1 shot 1 kill on our 3 unit troupes, Fire Prisms would rule this way).[/B]

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Moscovian
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:54 pm 
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As much as I want to save the Eldar, I think this agile function will make them too powerful.  

Perhaps just giving the Farseers and Exarchs the Leader function.  Hear me out:

This benefits only Infantry units.  Armour units would not benefit, most vyper and bike units would not benefit, titans would not benefit.  You only get them in Aspects if you buy the exarchs.

The total effect on the army would be pretty heavy.  I know it isn't everything that people want, but it is a good compromise.  Bear in mind the following will most likely happen to the Eldar:
Revenants to 700.
New skimmer rules will make the army much more vulnerable.

These changes alone will have a significant effect on the army.  I would encourage everyone to consider the affects of the army as a whole.  I know the Aspects will still be tough, but they are supposed to be tough.  And Exarchs are very much like leaders.
I reiterate that Eldar only win 60% of the time.  I read these vast lists of things where people are calling for sweeping changes.  I want to stay on topic so I won't break them down here.
But the goal should be to bring the Eldar slightly down in their wins (preferably to 50%).  I believe the above changes ALONE will do something close to that goal.

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Markconz
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:23 pm 
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Quote (MC23 @ 19 Feb. 2006 (14:10))
Agile
Because of Eldar's speed and grace under fire they do not recieve the automatic Blast marker for coming under fire.

I've considered this be limited to formations shot at but not being successfullt hit (that might be too rare), shot at but no casualities (Titans become extra scary), or just flat out (really powerful, no more 1 shot 1 kill on our 3 unit troupes, Fire Prisms would rule this way).[/B]

Limit it to eldar formations where the slowest unit has a speed of 35cm or more and I think it has promise. Shot at but no casualties - or maybe even no blast markers for coming under fire fullstop for these formations?




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Markconz
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:24 pm 
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Quote (Moscovian @ 19 Feb. 2006 (16:54))
Perhaps just giving the Farseers and Exarchs the Leader function. ?Hear me out:

This benefits only Infantry units. ?Armour units would not benefit, most vyper and bike units would not benefit, titans would not benefit. ?You only get them in Aspects if you buy the exarchs.

Trouble iis the infantry doesn't really need it - the vehicles do.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:15 pm 
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Hey I agree with you, but the alternative is.... What?  I'm just throwing down an idea of my own as an alternative to the Spirit Stones (trying to stay on topic in a heated debate).  

Perhaps spirit stones only applying to specific formations?  Such as the aforementioned smaller formations.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:53 am 
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With the agile idea the eldar actually suffer less blastmarkers than before and become a lot tougher :) Both to break and in assualts (harder to lay a prep blastmarker on them).

What ort of cost increase would you envisage for them?

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:10 am 
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On face value, I like Markconz's idea - it has some merit. Except...
or maybe even no blast markers for coming under fire fullstop for these formations?

Not keen on this bit :D

Sure, you could argue all eldar are agile, but for game balance you could argue the Hit and Run is a kind of "agility" and that's the only "agile" rule Eldar infantry need in E:A. As Moscovian mentions, you could always give the Eldar ?"leader" for their infantry commanders as well and make them pay for it like all other races have to.

Heck, it might even help even out the points issues people have with the Eldar. Having to pay an extra XX points starts bringing down the points available for other formations etc.
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MC23
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:53 am 
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Quote (Moscovian @ 19 Feb. 2006 (12:54))
As much as I want to save the Eldar, I think this agile function will make them too powerful. ?

Never thought it was a good solution, but would have made a better specific ability. Agile would be more of a unit per unit basis. So that would mean it would still be late to try to use now and awful as a solution for a whole army. But I thought it might be interesting to see what other ideas it might have sparked.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:56 am 
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Quote (MC23 @ 20 Feb. 2006 (07:53))
Quote (Moscovian @ 19 Feb. 2006 (12:54))
As much as I want to save the Eldar, I think this agile function will make them too powerful. ?

Never thought it was a good solution, but would have made a better specific ability. Agile would be more of a unit per unit basis. So that would mean it would still be late to try to use now and awful as a solution for a whole army. But I thought it might be interesting to see what other ideas it might have sparked.

Well in that case, perhaps limiting the "Agile" ability to Eldar vehicle-only formations would be acceptable (if Spirit Stones are removed, of course).

From a fluff point of view, it could be justified by saying that Eldar vehicle have anti-targeting devices and superior maneuverability. It would also be in keeping with the titans' holofield, making Eldar armour fragile yet hard to hit.

Wave Serpents would not be Agile because they rely more on their energy field than on their maneuverability for protection.

Agile would then be given to:

- Falcons (although this may be problematic in the case of Falcons used as transport... ??? )
- Firestorms
- Fire Prisms
- Nightspinners
- Engines of Vaul (or perhaps not, as it could potentially make them too powerful...)

Infantry formations would not get it, neither would Eldar Titans. If the Spirit Stones rule is removed, this should address the problem of the small Eldar formations while keeping the rest of the army at a reasonnable power level.

EDIT : Woohoo ! I'm a Drop Trooper now !  :p
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Markconz
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:42 pm 
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I don't like the idea of applying a unit special ability on a case by case basis. In my view, any revision should ideally be a replacement of the spirit stone rule that can be stated as simply and elegantly as possible - rather than a list of amendments to individual units in the list. Hence my modified suggestion of MC23's rule.

Agile (best name?) - ?Some sort of fluff about crystal targetting matrix's, spirit stones, holofields (in 40k eldar tanks can get a minor version of these which has a 50% chance to shake off suppression effects) etc.

"Any eldar formation which consists entirely of units with a speed of 35cm or more (except war engines) does not receive blast markers for coming under fire."

So this one line covers all the formations we want to have it:

-Falcons (provided all formation infantry is currently being transported)
-Wave serpents (provided all formation infantry is currently being transported)
-Fire Prisms
-Night Spinners
-Windriders (?)
-Nightwings and Phoenix (?)

The last two categories could be excluded - but I am not sure it is necessary to do so? My hunch is that they probably should be excluded.

Note I don't think the SHT should get it - they are tough enough already IMO.




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Jaldon
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:47 am 
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Ok, just to toss in a few remarks from Eldar opponents, you know the people I play against, and their feelings on why they don't like Spirit Stones (I know I asked, and even agree with a couple of them)

(1) All inclusive, every Eldar formation gets them no matter what.

(2) They cannot be attacked to reduce their use, or overcome to prevent their use.

(3) They 'feel' real beardy.

(4) Don't really fit the fluff.

Moscovian is correct to point out that the experimental rules for skimmers is going to force the Eldar to operate a bit closer to the enemy. I know because we have been using them almost exclusively for all our battles since their proposed use was first put forth. This itself, IMHO compensates for most of the points raises put forth already and should negate their implementation (Except for a chosen few who will still need it and aren't effected by the rule change).

Considering the present discussion on 'differences' in the Eldar Craftworld Armies, just a crazy idea but......................

Biel Tann: Exarchs get transfer leader ability

Ulthwe: Fasrseers get the transfer leader ability

Saim Hann: Farseer Jet Bike gets the transfer leader ability

It would have the positive effect of putting the focus of all three of these lists back on the core formations of each Craftworld. Thus Biel Tann would end up with more Aspect Hosts to get the transfer ability, and fewer Guardian Hosts?

Just a thought :(8:

Jaldon :p

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:13 am 
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Well, obviously I would like it :)

Incidentally which craftworld would be vehicle focused?

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Squared
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:09 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 21 Feb. 2006 (06:13))
Well, obviously I would like it :)

Incidentally which craftworld would be vehicle focused?

Iyandin?

Just a thought but instead of having a transfer for this army, instead give them spirit stones for pure all AV formations (baring maybe the titans)  The fluff could then be rewritten saying that since these vehicles are controlled by spirits that are not as connected to this world they are able to remove one extra blast marker.  Points increases might be in order...

^2
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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:56 pm 
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Why not keep the changes as simple as possible.

Just simply restrict the units which benefit from Spirit Stones?
If it is FAQ'd that Spirit Stones only affect certain Troupes (i.e. the small vehicle Troupes that everyone seems to agree that need some sort of protection) then it is clear and easy to see that Sprit Stones don't affect other formations e.g. Warhosts or Windrider Troupes.

Cheers

James

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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:59 pm 
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Quote (Squared @ 21 Feb. 2006 (08:09))
Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 21 Feb. 2006 (06:13))
Well, obviously I would like it :)

Incidentally which craftworld would be vehicle focused?

Iyandin?

Is n't Iyanden more synonomous with Wraithguard?

What about Alatoic? Several people have commented before that Alatoic are closest to generic Eldar list with the exception of emphasis on Rangers.

Cheers

James

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