Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 316 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 ... 22  Next

Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2

 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 9:15 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:20 pm
Posts: 696
Location: Sweden
PFE100 wrote:
As to the concern to number of groups testing, well I can't force people to play the list or changes. I also know I'm human and make mistakes and not a Robot and my group may play a different style than the norm. We have seen 12 item put forward and 8 have passed in the last 6 months and that more than in the last 2 years, if not longer.....
Just my 2 cents on what you could do to get the next change approved:
1. Most people don't play several games a week so please give it some more time before submitting stuff to approval. The last testing period was just 2 months.
2. Try and make the community a part of the testing. Encourage people and set up goals. Both this and the last time you put forward the changes to the ERC you did it without telling anyone. Why not post a note here saying that you need 6 more games before next month to pull this through or something similar. I'm sure you could ask for how many games/groups "they" think is fair before submitting changes.
3. It's good that you do post a lot of battle reports but try and make them "legal". Other reports (concerning other lists) that include "big" mistakes rule-wise or illegal formations have been discarded. So basically half of your reports is probably not counted. (But you already know this because you are part of the ERC...? )


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 5:56 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4864
Location: North Yorkshire
Please note that the proposals can still be tested .

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 7:48 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 9:03 am
Posts: 174
For the Fire Prism points:
Quote:
Would you be more comfortable with one for +25, three for +50 or five for +75?

Something like this isn't too bad, though it obviously reduces flexibility quite a lot (sometimes I've added a fire prism to bulk out my falcon formations, just because of my model availability). There are two specific issues with the above though- 1) I think they're overcosted. 15pts per upgrade is too much, and that's the cheapest option here, and 2) I find Fire Prisms more effective when concentrated into the one formation (a dedicated long range, tank hunter group), so the points values would be better along the lines of: upgrade 1 for free, 3 for twenty five and 5 for fifty.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 8:20 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1832
Location: Oslo, Norway
It was a trick question, actually! Assuming no other units in the army not in multiples of 25, that's exactly how they work now.

_________________
- Ulrik


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 3:00 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 9:03 am
Posts: 174
Except that 1 for 15 does not equal 1 for 25 and 3 for 45 is not 3 for 50. Having points that it is not possible to spend (due to list construction) annoys me greatly, and a value of 15 in an army of 25's is terrible for this. The only way you don't waste points is by having the prisms in multiples of 5.

15 points does seem like far too much of an upgrade cost anyway. Sure it's a very nice, long range, anti-tank shot, but it's one shot that comes at the expense of close quarters firepower (both firefights and actual shooting), so even when a free swap it's far from a must-have upgrade.

Edit: I should point out that it's not just a crazy mental itch that makes me hate the 15pt cost of fire prisms. Taking a single one costs 75pts, as the left over 10pts can't be used anywhere in the list. Taking two costs 75pts each, as there's no use for the remaining 20pts. It's only when you have an exact multiple of five that they're actually as cheap as 65pts each, and there's strong argument that 65pts each is overcosted anyway.
A lower value, like 10pts, improves the situation a little, but still not much. One would still cost 75pts, but two would only be 62.5pts each. Again, only when taking an exact multiple of 5 would they actually be as cheap as 60pts each.
5pts isn't too bad as 1-5 upgrades can then be taken for 25pts. It's more flexible, with less likelihood of wasted points effectively inflating their points cost (and taking 5 is again the most efficient option).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 11:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2541
Location: UK
You could always bump exarchs to 35, void spinner to 277.7374984 etc :)

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 1:42 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:01 am
Posts: 222
I'm really glad that the warlock isn't summoning an avatar anymore. That shit was crazy. I know that the battle reports on here may not have illustrated it's potential but that doesn't change its obvious power as a combo. Especially if the goal is to INCREASE the variety in lists, especially at comps.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 5:24 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:35 am
Posts: 200
Morsla wrote:
Thanks for the update Greg.

My opportunities for games are few and far between at the moment, but I will be able to get three battle reports against other Approved or Developmental lists from my games at the Heavy Bolter tournament in July. I haven't participated in any of the playtests so far, and though there's likely to be a bit of player overlap with other Aussie events, my games are likely to be against locals who also haven't been in other playtest groups.

I'm planning to use Iyanden, but can field Biel Tan if there's a stronger need for playtest games from the main list.


Morsla,

Mate I am excited to hear that your running Iyanden at Heavy Bolter this year. Unfortunatley i can't make the trip down for the event although I know 3 of the guys from my group are heading down. I am sure Fatdex will make it a grand event! ;D
Love to hear the feedback from you and your opponenets even some batreps if you have the time.

Cheers

Mic


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 11:15 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5478
Location: London, UK
PFE100 wrote:
Ginger wrote:
As for testing, I thought this had already been extensively tested in the past 3+ years since it was first proposed . . .

Sorry Ginger, have to agree with David about the extensively tested in the past 3+ years, if you can prove otherwise, then I would like to look at the games in question.. I tend also to agree with you about the FP and EoV… I always look forward to your comments and Thank you.


The EoV price changes were initiated to bring the formation costs into line with other WE and artillery, notably those of the IG. I believe the E-UK Eldar lists were revised around the same time, which others will hopefully confirm. If I am correct that suggests they have been in this state for over two years.

It is notable that in this time there appears to be only a single E-UK list that used a pair of EoV and none with three. I put this down to several factors; the reduction in activations caused by larger EoV formations, that a pair of EoV is relatively brittle requiring another more expensive formation, and that three are the same cost as a formation of Revenants which arguably are more useful.

As such I respectfully suggest that the absence of these larger EoV formations is as valid a test as if they had been present in the many E-UK Eldar lists (and Net:EA lists) used over the period.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 3:22 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:15 am
Posts: 332
Ginger wrote:
It is notable that in this time there appears to be only a single E-UK list that used a pair of EoV and none with three. I put this down to several factors; the reduction in activations caused by larger EoV formations, that a pair of EoV is relatively brittle requiring another more expensive formation, and that three are the same cost as a formation of Revenants which arguably are more useful.

As such I respectfully suggest that the absence of these larger EoV formations is as valid a test as if they had been present in the many E-UK Eldar lists (and Net:EA lists) used over the period.

For what it's worth, I completely agree with this position.

Also the historical weakness of the Cobra with a 2BP main gun was partly ameliorated by a second unit for 200 points.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:14 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 9:53 pm
Posts: 374
Quick question for tonight: why do Dire Avengers exarchs use exarch assault weapons instead of exarch ranged weapons? It really makes them weaker than the other exarchs..


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:19 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4864
Location: North Yorkshire
Historical reasons. The DA Exarch is armed with a sword and not a better gun.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 9:53 pm
Posts: 374
For fluff reasons, you're right. But there are plenty anti-fluff/not represented stuff in the army lists -in this case it appears more as a weakness, not a strenght as in the fluff.. ;)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Biel-Tan Craftworld v4.2
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:24 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5478
Location: London, UK
Well, the additional weapon does add an extra attack in CC, even though it is only 5+ rather than 4+.
This does make the Exarch and Autarch a bit more dangerous in CC as well as FF, though the 5+ armour save is also a bit of a drawback.

As Tim said, the history behind this comes from the 40K world where the DA characters arrive with a power sword, and E:A does try to follow the fluff where possible and appropriate.

That said, you are also correct that there are many cases where E:A adopts other approaches to stats, usually for internal or external balance. Being a bit 'sub-par' in comparison with others means that they tend to be fielded less often, but that is not a bad thing, these units / characters provide more colour to the list.


Last edited by Ginger on Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 316 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 ... 22  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net