Ginger wrote:
To answer your suggestions in summary, the proposed nerfs are not needed. The Biel Tan list has had the various items mentioned for roughly a decade and as you may recollect it has already been nerfed from the original Swordwind list in a few ways. I might add that the E-UK championship stats show the list to be one of the most balanced ones with roughly even numbers of wins and losses over hundreds of games. To the specifics:-
No worries,
I figured the EUK stats would raise the counter to my points and I wish EA Australian lists were freely available as a counter to that argument because, in my recollection, Eldar have tended to place high in almost every tournament that has been run here. Like I said, not unbeatable but a struggle to do so. Even Matt Shadowlord (6-0) was tested at Cancon by the Eldar. I think it's safe to say the list is pushing the boundaries of what a list should be able to include.
I also note that of the players who use Biel Tan in the EUK lists, when they're used, the win/loss/draw ratio favours the win category somewhat. "win" often doubling the other two individually.
Ginger wrote:
Rangers - The Eldar lists need to find the balance between higher activation count and resilience.
I have to ask, why do Eldar need that balance? They already dominate a field with shooting and assault. Why do they require a high activation count? Also, the Eldar hardly lack resilience in my experience - e.g. my Warlord shooting at Revenants at Cancon = 1DC damage caused.... thanks Holofields! Saved all but one shot
Ginger wrote:
Nightwings - I hear your pain and agree in part. I think there is scope for making these 325 to match their power and resilience, but given the extended existence of the A/c and formation. I would not make other changes. That said, we do need to ensure that A/c from other lists and races continue to remain less powerfull (and less expensive) to avoid A/c power creep.
I don't see an issue with them having only 2 a/c - they'd still be the most powerful a/c out there so, again, why do they require 3? No one has ever seemed able to answer that question apart from "it's historical." I find it weird people aren't more concerned by 6x AA4+ at 30cm.
Ginger wrote:
Firestorms - they are powerfull, but also incredibly easy to supress in the original 5x Falcon formation. The SoV formation of 6x units was brought in in 2008, and I have always disagreed with the various reasons used to justify the change. I suspect the additional resilience of the SoV formation is the actual problem you encountered
No, my issue is with the Firestorm. 4x AA4+ is OTT and unnecessary when other options are available.
Ginger wrote:
Avatar - this is free, but also only available for one turn and only near a Farseer both of which greatly limit its power. So there is no justification for any changes.
Except the only limit to its power is the player's ability. In the hands of a good player it almost always hits home at some point in the game. I will agree to disagree with you here. It can be costed if simply for the benefit it provides. There's really no reason it can't be.
Ginger wrote:
Shining Spears - Originally the 4+ armour save was applied to all small skimmers to reflect the difficulty in hitting them. This was removed from the Jetbikes in 2011(?) as they were considered too powerfull in large numbers, but left on the Shining Spears because of their much higher cost. Given the more limited numbers and lack of firepower, I don't think Shining Spear armour needs to be nerfed.
Hmmm, a single formation at Cancon ate through a DKOK Infantry company and Gorgons so a lack of firepower doesn't seem to be an issue. I think an 8 strong formation that can butcher 20 infantry and 2 Gorgons could be considered somewhat powerful. Is 4+ armour necessary?
Ginger wrote:
Scorpion WE - In Swordwind, this had 60cm MW2 Pulse, which usually gave it 3x shots. After an extended debate involving large numbers of people including many who were very close to the original design team, the main change in 2008 was to convert Pulse to 2x shots. This achieved the desired nerf on the Revenants but clobbered the Scorpion which has been underpowered ever since. This recent revision is an attempt to return the Scorpion to a more acceptable level.
I find the fact that a 60cm 2x MW2+ weapon on a platform with 25cm move and Hit and Run as "not acceptable" to be a little perplexing and somewhat indicative of the problems with list design in NetEA. Nothing seems to be "unacceptable" and that's a big problem for this game because lists have been approved with highly unacceptable designs yet it seems difficult to retcon an approved list due to the traction of "Approved" and the length of time and effort it takes to make changes to a NetEA Approved list.
From my perspective, I see increasing the range on the Scorpion as the same as me increasing the range on Marine armoured vehicles because they are "unacceptable." The difference is the Scorpion fires MW2+ shots and the Marine tanks AT4+ at best. It's unnecessary when the Scorpion is entirely serviceable as it stands.
ulrik wrote:
On bikes, historically eldar jetbikes have been as tough as Marine bikes in all systems I've ever played. The 5+ save on guardian jetbikes is purely for balance.
Yep and SS could use some more of that
OK, I see the barriers will be raised on this issue and I can see it going nowhere as usual. Guess I'm done.