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Eldar alpha strikes discussion

 Post subject: Eldar alpha strikes discussion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
- only list with the void spinner - easily best artillery in the game and far superior to the other eldar shts, also no other eldar unit fulfills its role of being capable of hitting opponents deployment zone (which is vitally important for eldar as they are very vulnerable to artillery)


I agree with BT being a balanced choice.

However, your statement on the VS is not quite correct. A lot of Eldar units can hit the enemy deployment zone:

- Swooping Hawks can teleport in the enemy deployment zone.

- Spacecraft can bomb the enemy deployement with as many as 3 large templates on turn 1 (!)

- Storm serpents can triple move assault formations into the enemy deployment zone turn 1.

- Tons of Eldar units can double and shoot into the enemy deployment zone, even using pop up to hide afterwards.

VS is a good unit, but far from indispensable. Also it is far from being the best artillery in the game: Ordinatus Golgotha (MW BP ftw) and Ordinatus Medrenguard (Invulnerable artillery) are way way better, and contagion engines are at least as powerful.

Also, aspect formations are better deals for their points in the other craftworlds.

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Last edited by LordotMilk on Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:50 pm 
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I agree that they aren't the only unit, but they're certainly the best at it, spaceships are less effective against smaller armies where barrage can miss, you also can't guarantee them arriving on T1 if the opponent also has a spaceship and a higher or equal SR, swooping hawks can indeed teleport, but that leaves them in the midst of the army, they can of course consolidate 35cm but that's not particularly far from the enemy deployment zone, same comment with storm serpent+gating troops, doubling formations are most likely hitting on 5/6's and also then within reach of the enemy singling (or even engaging) and of course, you can fly a vampire right down into the enemy deployment zone if you like, but you leave stuff stranded and vulnerable to counterattack, meanwhile the void spinner sits happily in your deployment zone, safe from (most) reprisals :D

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:54 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
I agree that they aren't the only unit, but they're certainly the best at it, spaceships are less effective against smaller armies where barrage can miss, you also can't guarantee them arriving on T1 if the opponent also has a spaceship and a higher or equal SR, swooping hawks can indeed teleport, but that leaves them in the midst of the army, they can of course consolidate 35cm but that's not particularly far from the enemy deployment zone, same comment with storm serpent+gating troops, doubling formations are most likely hitting on 5/6's and also then within reach of the enemy singling (or even engaging) and of course, you can fly a vampire right down into the enemy deployment zone if you like, but you leave stuff stranded and vulnerable to counterattack, meanwhile the void spinner sits happily in your deployment zone, safe from (most) reprisals :D


Agreed.

But that tendency os reversed later in the game, where Void spinners are often pretty much the only thing in your deployment zone, and vulnerable to enemy fast attack troops.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:02 pm 
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I suppose so, although a lot can happen by T3 in a game.... when I face eldar, if void spinners aren't dead or broken by the end of turn 1/beginning of turn 2, I'm doing something very wrong :)

disrupt hits on T3 are so valuable for wiping out those broken formations....plus as they're 25cm move skimmers, they could even march to nab objectives a fair distance away

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:07 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
- only list with the void spinner - easily best artillery in the game and far superior to the other eldar shts, also no other eldar unit fulfills its role of being capable of hitting opponents deployment zone (which is vitally important for eldar as they are very vulnerable to artillery)


I agree with BT being a balanced choice.

However, your statement on the VS is not quite correct. A lot of Eldar units can hit the enemy deployment zone:

- Swooping Hawks can teleport in the enemy deployment zone.

- Spacecraft can bomb the enemy deployement with as many as 3 large templates on turn 1 (!)

- Storm serpents can triple move assault formations into the enemy deployment zone turn 1.

- Tons of Eldar units can double and shoot into the enemy deployment zone, even using pop up to hide afterwards.

VS is a good unit, but far from indispensable.

Also, aspect formations are better deals for their points in the other craftworlds.

No I'm not
Storm serpent - any competent player will have blocked the table off with scouts to easily prevent this

Swooping hawks - if you want to send 250+ pts on a suicide mission - which with opponents scouts, units on overwatch and tge strategy roll may not even work before the aspects die, the great

Spaceship - plotted pre-deployment so no guarantee of hitting target

Vehicles - prisms, falcons, scorpions. Usually most targets, particularly targets your opponent knows are a priority like artillery, will be hidden by terrain. If not then you are using terrain or pop up (like your WG stats) as seemed to be the case with your wildly anomalous scorpion results.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:23 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
LordotMilk wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
- only list with the void spinner - easily best artillery in the game and far superior to the other eldar shts, also no other eldar unit fulfills its role of being capable of hitting opponents deployment zone (which is vitally important for eldar as they are very vulnerable to artillery)


I agree with BT being a balanced choice.

However, your statement on the VS is not quite correct. A lot of Eldar units can hit the enemy deployment zone:

- Swooping Hawks can teleport in the enemy deployment zone.

- Spacecraft can bomb the enemy deployement with as many as 3 large templates on turn 1 (!)

- Storm serpents can triple move assault formations into the enemy deployment zone turn 1.

- Tons of Eldar units can double and shoot into the enemy deployment zone, even using pop up to hide afterwards.

VS is a good unit, but far from indispensable.

Also, aspect formations are better deals for their points in the other craftworlds.

No I'm not
Storm serpent - any competent player will have blocked the table off with scouts to easily prevent this

Swooping hawks - if you want to send 250+ pts on a suicide mission - which with opponents scouts, units on overwatch and tge strategy roll may not even work before the aspects die, the great

Spaceship - plotted pre-deployment so no guarantee of hitting target

Vehicles - prisms, falcons, scorpions. Usually most targets, particularly targets your opponent knows are a priority like artillery, will be hidden by terrain. If not then you are using terrain or pop up (like your WG stats) as seemed to be the case with your wildly anomalous scorpion results.


Storm Serpents are deployed after garrisons, and most armies dont have more than 2 formations of scouts, hardly enough to break the whole table.

Swooping Hawks have a 50 cm engage range, they can easily teleport out of sight, assault and get consolidate out of sight on most battlefields.

L deployment zones with Dragonships wreaks havoc every time. Either you do hit some things or you force our opponent out of the zones you dont want him in. Only vs. marines do Dragonships behave poorly in a recurrent manner, and you dont need deplyoment zone attcks vs. marines.

Concerning the hidden by terrain to shooting vehicles, I would agree, except thats precisely what spaceships are for. You bombard behind terrain features, that way the enemy is condemned to get shot to pièces either way, as if he deploys hidden, spaceships wreck him, and if he deploys in sight, the rest of the army wrecks him, with triple activation shooting.

Concerning the Scorpion, It seems you have missed the stats that are currenty, being tested (3x 2+ MW shots at 60 cm), because thats the second time you disagree with Scorpion power. I have already explained to you why your stanceon the Scorpions didnt stand in the BT thread, if you wish to answer to it, please do it there.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:31 pm 
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All of that post is irrelevant.


Storm serpents - 4 scouts can block 110cm of board, 2 formations can easily block the entire board

Spaceships - most tables have more than 1 terrain piece in tge deployment zone to hide behind. Spaceship will hit one, artillery coukd easily be behind the other

Scorpions - stat change is of no consequence you can still hide trom them behind terrain. Only possible explanations are your opponent deploying in the open or you not using pop-up and terrain shadowing correctly. How does your group use them?

Hawks - 50cm away is hardly safe and again does not negate OW, strategy roll or scouts

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:47 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
All of that post is irrelevant.


Charming as ever :-*

Steve54 wrote:
Storm serpents - 4 scouts can block 110cm of board, 2 formations can easily block the entire board.


I would be interested to know how many people do that vs. Eldar in your next tournament. We play blind chosen armies, therefore the enemy does not know if there are any Storm Serpents in the Eldar army until he declares the reserves, and definitely not at the time of garrison deployment. Also, your proposed deployment is very poor in most circumstances.

Steve54 wrote:
Spaceships - most tables have more than 1 terrain piece in tge deployment zone to hide behind. Spaceship will hit one, artillery coukd easily be behind the other


Most of our tables have only 1, if that, terrain feature in the deployment zone. That notwithstanding, lets say, to humour you, that there would be 2. When you know that the enemy player has an Eldar spacecraft deployed, will you seriously deploy your artillery behind or in that cover, even if there are two options, basically giving yourself a 50% chance of losing your artillery?

Steve54 wrote:
Scorpions - stat change is of no consequence you can still hide trom them behind terrain. Only possible explanations are your opponent deploying in the open or you not using pop-up and terrain shadowing correctly. How does your group use them?


We use them quite typically: advance or double pop up attacks. If I follow your argument you mean to say that having direct shots at all, on any unit, is useless, because the enemy will always be hidden behind cover unless he is somehow mentally handicapped. My experience is somehow different. I find that even guardian platforms get to shoot sometimes, not to mention 60 cm pop up attacks.

Also, you have previously written (as part of the euk collective), that 3x 2+ was tested and deemed too strong, have you changed your mind?

Steve54 wrote:
Hawks - 50cm away is hardly safe and again does not negate OW, strategy roll or scouts


Its all played in combination steve. You bombard the deployment zone to get the enemy in the open, you kill the scouts with Swooping hawks, you prep the enemy with your falcons/scorpions/Revenants and you assault him with your storm serpent portaled troops.

That way you overwhelm a battle sector and dont suffer counter attack. Thats the ideal Eldar Battleplan.

Of course, the enemy knows this and tries to counter you, and he better do one way or the other or he will lose.

That there are ways for him to perhaps interfere with the Eldar plan is only natural. That does not mean the Eldar plan is bad.

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Last edited by LordotMilk on Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Steve's referring to the ruling that pop-up attacks don't have LOS if the terrain is closer to the target than the shooter I believe. Is that how you play?

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:57 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Steve's referring to the ruling that pop-up attacks don't have LOS if the terrain is closer to the target than the shooter I believe. Is that how you play?


Yes of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:00 pm 
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in that case, how are you able to hit units behind terrain in their deployment zone? if falcons double, they're 20cm from the enemy deployment zone, unless the artillery is behind a massive bit of terrain sticking out, it will be safe from pop-up attacks surely?

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:05 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
in that case, how are you able to hit units behind terrain in their deployment zone? if falcons double, they're 20cm from the enemy deployment zone, unless the artillery is behind a massive bit of terrain sticking out, it will be safe from pop-up attacks surely?


Perhaps my example was not clear enough. The spacecraft attack is there to force the player to deploy in the open , by targetting the zone hidden behind terrain.

That way, if the player does use the terrain, he gets blasted by MW barrage, and if he deploys in the open , the Eldar has the possibility to shoot him down.

This is common play here, and we have found very effective.

The result is that spacecraft rarely hit something, but the rest of the army gets to execute their battleplan.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:23 pm 
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I'd rather take the single MW5+ each (on AVs) from the barrage than the 3x MW2+ guaranteed from the Scorpions, myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:27 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
I'd rather take the single MW5+ each (on AVs) from the barrage than the 3x MW2+ guaranteed from the Scorpions, myself.


So much the better.

And i do believe Scorpions with those stats should be toned down to 3x 3+, so as to make it 3x4+ on advance orders in that scenario.

We do not play Scorpions with current stats anymore for that reason.

Also, 5+ would be against manticores and such, against Baran or Krieg Patforms it would be 4+ (our IG player rarely takes emplcements, preferring Trojans).

Don't forget also, that it's 3 large templates for the dragonship. Thats a lot of potential targets.

And your reasoning would certanly not be the same if you had 4 artillery battries instead of one.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Eldar Craftworld would you suggest to a new player
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:31 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
All of that post is irrelevant.


Charming as ever :-*

Steve54 wrote:
Storm serpents - 4 scouts can block 110cm of board, 2 formations can easily block the entire board.


I would be interested to know how many people do that vs. Eldar in your next tournament. We play blind chosen armies, therefore the enemy does not know if there are any Storm Serpents in the Eldar army until he declares the reserves, and definitely not at the time of garrison deployment. Also, your proposed deployment is very poor in most circumstances.

Steve54 wrote:
Spaceships - most tables have more than 1 terrain piece in tge deployment zone to hide behind. Spaceship will hit one, artillery coukd easily be behind the other


Most of our tables have only 1, if that, terrain feature in the deployment zone. That notwithstanding, lets say, to humour you, that there would be 2. When you know that the enemy player has an Eldar spacecraft deployed, will you seriously deploy your artillery behind or in that cover, even if there are two options, basically giving yourself a 50% chance of losing your artillery?

Steve54 wrote:
Scorpions - stat change is of no consequence you can still hide trom them behind terrain. Only possible explanations are your opponent deploying in the open or you not using pop-up and terrain shadowing correctly. How does your group use them?


We use them quite typically: advance or double pop up attacks. If I follow your argument you mean to say that having direct shots at all, on any unit, is useless, because the enemy will always be hidden behind cover unless he is somehow mentally handicapped. My experience is somehow different. I find that even guardian platforms get to shoot sometimes, not to mention 60 cm pop up attacks.

Also, you have previously written (as part of the euk collective), that 3x 2+ was tested and deemed too strong, have you changed your mind?

Steve54 wrote:
Hawks - 50cm away is hardly safe and again does not negate OW, strategy roll or scouts


Its all played in combination steve. You bombard the deployment zone to get the enemy in the open, you kill the scouts with Swooping hawks, you prep the enemy with your falcons/scorpions/Revenants and you assault him with your storm serpent portaled troops.

That way you overwhelm a battle sector and dont suffer counter attack. Thats the ideal Eldar Battleplan.

Of course, the enemy knows this and tries to counter you, and he better do one way or the other or he will lose.

That there are ways for him to perhaps interfere with the Eldar plan is only natural. That does not mean the Eldar plan is bad.

Storm serpents/scouts - I've deployed like that in at least the last 4 tournaments I've taken Eldar - in every game, and won all those tournaments. So its hardly a poor deployment.

Terrain/spaceships - yes I'd still deploy artillery behind, or even in, cover as then you have a 50% chance of avoiding the spaceship. Deploy in the open and you will 100% get shot by any army

Scorpions/direct shots - don't be deliberately stupid, that wasn't what I said. Scorpions with whatever stats, falcons or any other AV cannot hit opponents units in their deployment if they are hidden on turn 1 which is what we are talking about. Even if there is a spaceship there is always somewhere to hide even if it is using mid-table terrain. I can see no other reason why you would think this unless you are playing terrain shrouding/pop-up wrong - and you will not say how you play it.

Hawks/tactics - as with your LatD 'tactics' this 'masterplan' requires complete cooperation from your opponent - and the use of 1200pts of units and 4 formations, several of which are doomed, Use a Void spinner and there is no risk jut win the strategy roll and activate it.

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