Hey all! With the NetEA Army Book nearing completion, there are still some little things that I'd like to address.

Ulthwé being the primary target; it's teetering on the edge between Approved and Developmental, with the main concern being the Black Guardians and their 1+ initiative plus farsight allowing a "diceless" triple retain. I haven't heard as many complaints about Strategy Rating 5, but it's always been a point of possible concern for me.

What have people's experience with this been like? I've played many Ulthwé games and have never had it come up as an issue; it's not that strong in the first turn (Unless fighting Necrons or planetfallers!) and you've often got Blast markers hanging around in later turns to hamper you. I'd like to hear what other people have seen on the battlefield in this regard, certainly, "on paper" is seems potentially scary, but has it seen it in action?

Possible solutions:

1) Increase the cost of the Black Guardian Warhost

2) Reduce the Black Guardian initiative to 2+

3) Increase the points of all formations to compensate for SR5. (And probably change to a 1 to 3 Warhost to Troupe ratio)

Do people have other thoughts or suggestions?

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

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I've played Ulthwe almost exclusively and rarely use Black Guardian Warhosts, simply because I primarily play with webgates and Black Guardians can't take wraith constructs. I'm going to start trying out the Mech Eldar style with wave serpents, although that'll hammer my activation count something terrible

My thoughts:

It's unlikely that, other than on the 1st turn, the Eldar player will get to use the diceless triple retain very often as that would require both 3 or more Black Guardian and Aspect fms/ titans to be in a position to do something and that those fms won't have accumulated BMs.

I think the limitations on upgrades, plus the expense of having to take Wave Serpents (other than a Blitz guard with a seer council I can't see what else to do with them) plus the 50pts extra balance out the 1+ init and extra Farseer. If they're any more expensive I definitely wouldn't take them as you're already looking at a 400pt non-SC formation which is a big chunk in an army that relies on high activation counts. If the init drops to 2+ I can't see any point taking them at all, I'd rather have 3 support weapons instead.

The 1:2 ratio is one of the things that defines Ulthwe, to the point of limiting the tactical options for the army. It absolutely forces you to take lots of guardians (I take a min. of 3, usually 4 at 3k), which shapes what you can do with them (webway assault or mech) or you have to take titans which hammers your activation count. I also think it's very fluffy.

As for SR5, that often gets raised eyebrows and it's a hard one to defend, but if it went down to SR4 I'd just play Biel-tan instead. What's the point of having to take hordes of guardians (which simply suck without upgrades) if you have the same SR as Biel-tan AND don't get the Voidspinner AND have dinky little Aspect fms?

In my opinion Ulthwe players are some of the most dubious, BO ridden excuses for players in all the community. With that being said I've played Matt's Ulthwe quite a bit and agree with a lot of what he's saying. As to your points...

1) 50 points to replace a guardian with a Farseer unit and go up to 1+ initiative is fine I think. Given that I haven't seen them played that often I'd be reluctant to up their cost further without some reports.

2) Reducing them to 2+ would effectively eliminate the need for a separate formation. You could just include a Guaridan-to-Farseer upgrade for the standard guardian formation and leave it at that. I don't think that's necessary though because I haven't run into the Auto Triple Retain of Doom (+2) at all. Plenty of triple retains though...

3) The SR5 is the hardest pill to swallow for me. Especially as the only downside is a 1:2 (as opposed to 1:3) core:support ratio. I think points could probably be adjusted in some areas (the formations you're most likely to activate first in turn 2-4), but whether it would be enough to justify going to 1:3 I don't know. I'd hate to turn the army into a Guardian/Aspect/Ranger/War Walker/Night Spinner pop-corn bag, which I think would be possible at 1:3. You might have to increase the number of base units in some of the support formations. I like 1:2 and think you can build some good lists inspite of it.

So in conclusion, I guess I haven't run in to these scary things on paper in a game at all. Given that Matt puts forward a pretty competitive list build and game I don't think they're much of an issue.

Some spit balling:

1) Drop Heavy Weapon platforms and give Guardians (call them Guardian Defenders?) and/or Black Guardians a Scatter laser shot for every two units (like IG). Defenders have to take a heavy weapon platform nowadays. This also might help mitigate a 25 point bump for the guardians at SR5 as they'll have 4 scatter laser shots at full strength and won't have to worry about platform placement for suppression.

2) Add Storm Guardians (CC5+/FF5+MW or IC maybe to represent the fusion guns or Flamer) as I'm sad no other list has them.

3) Make the Mounted Guardian/Black Guardian options 6 stands and three Wave Serpents. I think 350/400 is a lot of points for a core unit in this list given the 1:2 ratio. 250/300 might see them taken more, or 275/325 if activations soar too high.

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Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

yeah, it's hard to defend the SR5, but when most/ all of your units are init 2+ and don't have Leaders anywhere to completely get rid of BMs, it kinda balances out.

I'd be all over the Mounted Guardian option. In fact, the reason why I've mostly gone for a webway approach is because the cost of mechanising Guardians really directs you into a completely and, possibly, less competitive strategy. Still, I need a lot more practice with mechanised Guardians.

The Guardian Defenders is an interesting idea and would also provide quite a boost to the mechanised formations. 25pts would be a minimum though..

Storm Guardians would be awesome, although costing would be tricky - too low and they'll be overpowering, too high and you'll hit the limits of how much you would want to pay for something with no armour value.

The Warlock Titan has always had the option of 1+ retain.

SR5 is also the defining characteristic of Ulthwé, and you got to have something to justify building your army around guardians. You can't even have wraithguard in the 1+ init formations.

I played half a dozen games with these and the 1+ guardians are the problem, guardians in wave serpents are a very competitive build with BT, with or without a Warlock titan, and making them 1+ initiative would be bad enough with the BT SR. With SR5 you are likely to go first and then can make 3 activations without ever rolling a dice - that is seriously overpowered and not fun to play against.
With BT the best you could manage was 1+aspects followed by 1+warlock but then 2+guardians, using this build though you have the drawback of having the warlock so probably being at a activation disadvantage.

Saying they might have BMs is irrelevant, with U easily being able to manage 12 activations there is a good chance the 3 mounted guardian formation will be able to hide until the opponent is done and/or use terrain and keeping the WS loaded to minimise the chances of getting a BM. BT armies frequently manage to get 3 formations in position, BM free, to do a second turn triple retain so I don't see how U are going to be different in that.

IMO smaller guardian formations would just make the list better as you're then getting more activations without much of a power reduction for the black guardians.

Just make black guardians 2+ initiative and the problem is solved. They then have pros (SR5, cheap aspects) and cons with the BT (no VSpinner, no large aspects, support ratio)

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

I'd strongly oppose 2+ Black Guardians. 1+ initiative means an elite formation, and the Black Guardians are just that - elite guardians. Drop them to 2+ and you might as well not have an Ulthwé list.

Have you played with or against the Ulthwe list?

I've played against both the NetEA and the EUK list, and the former was bob overpowered and also not fun to play against.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I've played the Ulthwé list. I'm probably not good enough with it, cos I mostly lose.

Still, how will you represent Black Guardians without 1+ init? As nobody takes the current "extra" options, nuking them to 2+ without doing anything would IMO kill the entire list.

They are 2+ in the EUK list and it is a very strong list, better the Biel-Tan when played to its strengths IMO.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

The only thing they got on Biel-tan is SR5...and extra farseers. This pushes them above Biel-tan? How?

Honestly curious here.

Steve, you say Guardians in Serpents are competitive, are they better than a DA troupe in Wave Serpents? Cost is comparable (375 vs 425 in eUK list). Unit size is bigger (12 vs 9) but the Aspects are deadlier...

edit: I'm not questioning that 1+ init is OP. Even if I don't see it I take your word over my experience. I just feel that something is lost from the list when the iconic unit of Ulthwé is downgraded to regular schlobs...

On stats DA are clearly superior - but they get a penalty for retaining which is the whole problem

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Not in the eUK list, since they have 1+ vs the guardian's 2+.

Correct, both will be on 2+ in the EUK list when retaining.

In the NetEA list, the Guardians will still be on a 1+.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

So, again, what makes the Black Guardians competitive?