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Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List 2.1

 Post subject: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List 2.1
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:54 am 
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I have made a version of the Eldar Titan list in hopes to spur progress. Its my hope to see this list developed and ready to be included in Epic: War Engines Supplement (Working Title?) that Evil and Chaos is making. It is by no means tested and it was done AMTL fashion as I hope to see most Titan lists will be in. I felt that the current version was just like any other Eldar list but with more of the same Titans. I hope to see new and refined old weapons to make this list Titans different from Standard Pattern Titans found in the other lists.

I also hope to see Moscovian and Chroma in this thread with there wisdom and advice.

EDIT: Version 2.1 Uploaded


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Last edited by Angel_of_Caliban on Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:07 am 
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Comment #1 : What model is the Farseer Titan meant to use?

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:35 am 
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Ah, cool to see some further development of this list, thanks AoC. :)

Initial thoughts:
1 – Names
1a – 'Farseer Titan' – I assume this is a placeholder name? It might get a bit confusing, since a Warlock has the Farsight special rule. Perhaps something like 'Spectre' or 'Diabolist', to follow the slightly sinister magic-user feel, or 'Oracle', 'Augerer' or 'Revelator' for a slightly more neutral feel.
1b – I'm not keen on the Titan Warhost upgrade names – I'd prefer to have unique nomenclature, if only to prevent potential confusion. For example, Veteran Titan pilots wouldn't be Exarchs, since they're not Aspect Warriors. Perhaps 'Veteran Steersman', or 'Suzerain' for the exarch equivalent, and 'Potentate' or something for the Autarch equivalent?

2 – Queries/clarifications
2a – Are the upgrades listed in the 'Eldar Titan Warhosts' section upgrades allowed, or upgrades that the Titan comes with? I'm assuming the former.
2b – Will the other Eldar Knights appear?
2c – Gate of Vaul: will this have the proviso that it's not usable if an unbroken enemy formation is within 15cm?

3 – Suggestions
3a – I'd like to see the support hosts being substantially different than the standard lists. The Eldar Titan Clans aren't part of a Craftworld, are they? I thought they were a bit like the Pirate fleets. If this is right, perhaps a sort or Ranger/Dark Eldar Warrior equivalent rather than Guardians/Aspects. Just to give a different feel; a bit like the Ad Mech/AMTL association.
3b – I'm a bit wary of allowing Eldar titans such easy access to Leader for the simple reason that it's pretty damn hard to put Blast Markers on the buggers in the first place! In addition, the lack of leader in the regular Eldar lists is a pretty characterful weakness, in my opinion. Eldar Titans should feel slightly more fragile than their Ork and human counterparts, and removing the option for leader would encourage a slightly more conservative, protective style of play, I think.
3c – The old Eldar Battle Class Titan models had Lascannon wing mounts as well as/instead of the Missile Launchers. Perhaps this could be added in as an option (i.e. get better AT fire at the expense of AA and AP).
3d – The Eldar Power Fist is considerably better than the Imperial equivalent, thanks to the inbuilt lasers. I realise that they're separate lists, but I'd suggest a price rise nevertheless.

4 – The Farseer Titan
4a – I like the idea of an Emperor/Mega-Gargant equivalent, and I think you've gone for a good statline. However, since the Eldar way of war is so different, I think this is a really good opportunity to make something unique. I'd really emphasise the Wraithgate-carrying angle of this thing, and give it lots of support/enhancement rules, perhaps at the cost of its direct-attack abilities. This would be a good way to introduce Leader or inspiring into the army: rather than allowing it as a basic upgrade, you could use this super-Titan to enhance others, a bit like the 40k Farseer powers 'doom' and 'guide'.

Anyway, hope that's some good food for thought, and thanks for writing it up. It probably looks like a long list of suggestions for changes, but I really do appreciate the work and ideas you've put in :)

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Last edited by Apologist on Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:35 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Comment #1 : What model is the Farseer Titan meant to use?

Not Sure...I just thought that Eldar might need a Titan bigger than DC6 in an all Titan list. Maybe just a re-work/greenstuff Warlock? Or maybe someone can CAD one up? I plan on bugging Semajnollissor about Titan weapons, so maybe the Titan too! =)


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:49 am 
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I agree that a big Titan is a good thing for an all-Titan list, if only to provide something new and fun and unique :)

The presence of the wraithgate got me thinking about a sort of 'Mothership/Isha/pregnant/protective/supportive' feel to the Titan. Perhaps that's something worth pursuing?

...or perhaps I just failed my Freudian check. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:51 am 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Comment #1 : What model is the Farseer Titan meant to use?

Not Sure...I just thought that Eldar might need a Titan bigger than DC6 in an all Titan list. Maybe just a re-work/greenstuff Warlock? Or maybe someone can CAD one up? I plan on bugging Semajnollissor about Titan weapons, so maybe the Titan too! =)

I think the Eldar have enough Titans to form a good Titan list, without needing to get "fannish" and make up extra ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:00 pm 
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Quote:
I think the Eldar have enough Titans to form a good Titan list, without needing to get "fannish" and make up extra ones.


While the conservative side of me thinks that making up new stuff can very quickly go off-course; I've got to disagree with the statement that the Eldar have enough titans. Essentially, they've got two, if you consider the Warlock a specialised Phantom.

There's certainly an argument to be made that the Warlock is something unique, but at a game-mechanics level, it's got a single special rule and weapon option.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:05 pm 
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You could do plenty to add variety to the existing Titan classes without making up your own Titan, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:06 pm 
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Apologist wrote:
Ah, cool to see some further development of this list, thanks AoC. :)

Initial thoughts:
1 – Names
1a – 'Farseer Titan' – I assume this is a placeholder name? It might get a bit confusing, since a Warlock has the Farsight special rule. Perhaps something like 'Spectre' or 'Diabolist', to follow the slightly sinister magic-user feel, or 'Oracle', 'Augerer' or 'Revelator' for a slightly more neutral feel.
1b – I'm not keen on the Titan Warhost upgrade names – I'd prefer to have unique nomenclature, if only to prevent potential confusion. For example, Veteran Titan pilots wouldn't be Exarchs, since they're not Aspect Warriors. Perhaps 'Veteran Helmsman', or 'Suzerain' for the exarch equivalent, and 'Potentate' or something for the Autarch equivalent

Name can be whatever really, just followed Eldar progression ie Warlocks lesser magic type folk and Farseer more magic type folk.
Both Farseer and Warlock Titans have Farsight.
The upgrades names Autarch and Exarch was mainly because I didn't know a Titan fluff name. I do want them changed sooner or later to avoid confusion with other Eldar lists.


Apologist wrote:
2 – Queries/clarifications
2a – Are the upgrades listed in the 'Eldar Titan Warhosts' section upgrades allowed, or upgrades that the Titan comes with? I'm assuming the former.
2b – Will the other Eldar Knights appear?
2c – Gate of Vaul: will this have the proviso that it's not usable if an unbroken enemy formation is within 15cm?

Those are upgrades they can take, if notice there datafaxs don't have any weapons or upgrades listed.
I only reduce the Knight as they were not my focus nor do I know much about them. If needed am more than happy to see them in, just with proper guidance from someone. I think they could also be left for an Exdotie list too. They were more like a 'Forge Knights' entry like in the AMTL.
All normal rules apply to the Gate of Vaul, just too lazy to write it all out. (Note: Would like a different name and to make the 'Gate of Vaul' to allow only Vehicles and smaller, thus making three types of webway)


Apologist wrote:
3 – Suggestions
3a – I'd like to see the support hosts being substantially different than the standard lists. The Eldar Titan Clans aren't part of a Craftworld, are they? I thought they were a bit like the Pirate fleets. If this is right, perhaps a sort or Ranger/Dark Eldar Warrior equivalent rather than Guardians/Aspects. Just to give a different feel; a bit like the Ad Mech/AMTL association.
3b – I'm a bit wary of allowing Eldar titans such easy access to Leader for the simple reason that it's pretty damn hard to put Blast Markers on the buggers in the first place! In addition, the lack of leader in the regular Eldar lists is a pretty characterful weakness, in my opinion. Eldar Titans should feel slightly more fragile than their Ork and human counterparts, and removing the option for leader would encourage a slightly more conservative, protective style of play, I think.
3c – The old Eldar Battle Class Titan models had Lascannon wing mounts as well as/instead of the Missile Launchers. Perhaps this could be added in as an option (i.e. get better AT fire at the expense of AA and AP).
3d – The Eldar Power Fist is considerably better than the Imperial equivalent, thanks to the inbuilt lasers. I realise that they're separate lists, but I'd suggest a price rise nevertheless.

I tried to avoid similar feel of the other Craftworld lists. Like the Guardian Formation and Rangers. Also no transports are allowed, to focus on webway. But to the best of my Knowledge this is a Craftworld that just like Titans??
I just copied and pasted Exarch and Autarch abilites from AMTL equivalents, they may be a reason why they weren't there before. Something that can totally change, I was just trying to find upgrades to make them different from standard Eldar Titans.
Lascannon is a possibility, ML was just part of the Titans original. So when I tried to break them down I had to put that as an upgrade. Points on most weapons are a guess and will need playtesting.


Apologist wrote:
4 – The Farseer Titan
4a – I like the idea of an Emperor/Mega-Gargant equivalent, and I think you've gone for a good statline. However, since the Eldar way of war is so different, I think this is a really good opportunity to make something unique. I'd really emphasise the Wraithgate-carrying angle of this thing, and give it lots of support/enhancement rules, perhaps at the cost of its direct-attack abilities. This would be a good way to introduce Leader or inspiring into the army: rather than allowing it as a basic upgrade, you could use this super-Titan to enhance others, a bit like the 40k Farseer powers 'doom' and 'guide'.

As a made of unit this guy could be anything but at the same time the powers at be may decided to can it. I would like to see it more magical but not sure how yet. Figured we could work on balancing the real units first. I just thought Eldar Titans have to have something better than a DC 6 guy right?

Thanks for all your comments and I hope to see you continue to support this list.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:07 pm 
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Angel, run with it. When I created the Eldar Titan list it was really to create an opportunity to throw the Eldar into the sand box with the bigger kids. It was created long before the current AMTL list and I agree there should be some continuity. I wish I had the time to devote to it but I don't. Since you do, have fun!

A few things...
The Eldar models are numerous when it comes to Titans. You can readily get a hold of most of them on eBay or ChaosOrc or just trading here. My initial thought was (and still is) each of these models is sufficiently different as to be different units. Small ones are scout class, larger ones are battle class. I would be happy if you tried to stay in that same theme. Remember those old boxy Eldar Titans? I envisioned those as Warden Titans. Heavier armor, shorter range.

The Magnate was supposed to be something more than just the biggest Titan with a Farseer. The Warlock already has that role and I don't think Farsight has to be the end-all-be-all power to distinguish leadership (it isn't in the Biel-tan list). I envisioned it to be an opporunity for modeling something bigger, a piece that really shines above all the rest, a unit that is worth 1200 points. Consider that a Warlock is 850 points and a killer and you could see that a Magnate would be even more 'wow'.

I'd be happy to collaborate with you in more detail. The mechanics of the list I am very flexible on and believe you have a better grasp of the AMTL list than I do, so go for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:09 pm 
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Quote:
I just thought Eldar Titans have to have something better than a DC 6 guy right?

Unless there's a good proxy model out there I'd shy away from this path.

Moscovian makes some good points about the "boxy" Eldar Titans and how they could have different stats.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:11 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I think the Eldar have enough Titans to form a good Titan list, without needing to get "fannish" and make up extra ones.

You could do plenty to add variety to the existing Titan classes without making up your own Titan, IMO.

I tend to agree E&C but I just wanted to throw it out there. I think Eldar may need higher DC Titan but its the least of my priorities. If later down the line the list preforms well without it than further development of it could be canned.

My focus is to get the main Titans to be more than the standard ones, just like in the AMTL.

Btw, its annoying that every time I reply there are new posts....lol! But that's ok, because that means people are reading and commenting!


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:17 pm 
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Quote:
My focus is to get the main Titans to be more than the standard ones, just like in the AMTL.

Then start with focusing on that, rather than making up new Titans.

Eldar don't nessesarily subscribe to "bigger is better".

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:44 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
My focus is to get the main Titans to be more than the standard ones, just like in the AMTL.

Then start with focusing on that, rather than making up new Titans.
Eldar don't nessesarily subscribe to "bigger is better".


I agree completely with the emphasised statement. Using the different styles of titans as discrete unit types is an interesting concept. I'd like to see where that goes.

I'd like to see a unique titan type, and that could easily be an alternative Battle-class or Scout titan, rather than an Emperor-equivalant. Perhaps that might be the Eldar's niche – lots of Scout Titans, rather than an übertitan? After all, lots of fragile, powerful units and a relatively high activation count is the Eldar way for their other lists.

For reference:

Scout Titans
There are three types of eldar scout titans – the original 'organic chicken' Revenents:
Image
Image

The later 'boxy chicken' style;
Image

....and the modern 'mini-Phantom' style.
Image
Sonic Lances are an option on the 40k ones, so it'd be good to see those as an option.


Battle Titans
The original Phantom titan
Image

The Warlock Titan:
Image

...the later, updated Phantom:
Image


Other
The upcoming FW Phantom took some obvious design cues from the original, but they're different enough that you could retcon the old Phantom into something else (or vice versa, of course)
Image
Image


This would, of course, mean that you'd need to get some kind soul to make an Epic-scale version! :D I throw it out there only as a very vague idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List [Variant]
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:54 pm 
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Well, with just looking at the list and barely skimming all the comments:

I'm not sure I'm on board with the idea of a new, bigger titan. Mainly, this is because I cannot visuallize what it should look like. As for using the E:40k titans, I will never do that, they look terrible and don't match the rest of the range (and the idea of an up-armored eldar anything would be a first - Net E:A probably can't get away with firsts). Perhaps instead of adding a titan on the 'top' of the size chart, you could add one in between the revenant and the phantom at 4 DC. That might not sould like much more than the revenant, but it it had armor like the phantom, it would last alot longer than a revenant can.

The list lacks both wraithlords and warwalkers, even though these fit the theme of a titan list. Wraithlords I can live without, based on the fluff, but definitely allow War Walkers in the list. I would also (without any ulterior motive at all) suggest that you allow additional support weapon platforms to be taken by the guardian troupe, instead of just the three. Perhaps make the troupe 8 guardians for 100pts, 4 of which may be replaced by HWPs for free, and the other four of which could be replaced by SWPs for +50points - just spitballing ideas.

Also, as mentioned by someone else, the leader names need to be changed. Back when I was looking for names such as these, I think best ones I came up with were 'Reeve' and 'Doge,' but your milage may vary.

The soon to be produced FW phantom titan is equiped with a power sword, so that needs to be added to the list (perhaps giving more extra CC attacks that the Pfist, but without any ranged attacks). Also, I think the revenant could be given another weapon choice - I favor a melta/fusion weapon of some sort: single shot, short ranged. Finally, in SM/TL the eldar titans could take lascannons in lieu of their missile launchers, I suggest allowing them to take pulse lasers/twin pulse lasers in the same fashion. As it is, you might also actually let people know what you intend the stat-lines of the weapons to be.

Okay, so it looks like you have a lot of work to do (regardless of whether you take anyone else's suggestions) to get the list into shape. If you think you have the time to put into it, I say go for it. I'll draw up whatever I can to help (I am very slow at it, though). Revenant guns are the easiest (I have a template), but I do want to draw up a new phantom titan too (though I'd gladly let E&C beat me to it, because it would take me about a year to do).


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