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[Ulthwé] Possible Changes
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=16622		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
Okay, I've been reviewing the Eldar lists as I try to get all my .pdfs linked back up and, going over Ulthwé, I was hit with a couple of things, especially after re-reading the last Ulthwé version thread.

So, big question: are the "The Path Less Travelled" and the "Ulthwé Black Guardians" limitation "special rules" really needed?

The Aspect Troupe is already constrained by the two-troupes-per-warhost limitation.

As to the "Black Guardians", my reading of the various texts doesn't make them out to be that "rare", just a bit differently organized, so would it upset things to allow them as a "normal" choice without the, sometimes confusing, 1-per-3 limitation?  They still wouldn't get Wraithguard and such, and they're a bit more expensive, so there'd be incentive to take 'regular' Guardian Warhosts.

So, what do people think?
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
I think if the Black Guardians are priced appropriately, the 1/3 restriction is not needed.  I think it's a legacy from the original list where the black guardians cost the same and were effectively a "free" upgrade for a certain portion of the formation.  I've always found it cumbersome.

Not sure about the aspects.  I can't recall the way the rule is written, don't have a list handy and the link is broken.

That said, with a 2-per-host allotment of troups, the most aspects you could theoretically have would be roughly 1:1 with the Guardians if you took 2 aspect troupes for every single guardian host.  Realistically, once you have to take other support formations out of a 2-per-host allotment, you're going to have a lot less than that.
Author:  stompzilla [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
For me, those are the only changes i would make.

In favour.
Author:  Grimgork [ Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
I do play the Black Eldar from Ulthwé regularily and I never ran in problems with the limitations on aspect warriors because the 2 per formation on supports stops you taking to many of them. So I am also pro deleting this rule.

For the black guardians. I do think, that with the additional cost and changend options that they have, this limitation is not needed too. But then you would have to keep the one that forces you to somehow mark them from the normal guardians because I think this very fluffy. I think it is perfectly imaginable that an Ulthwé Force consits of only Black Guardians if normal Guardians are not up to the job at hand from a Fluff PoV. And it further helps to differenitiate Ulthwé forces from other Craftworlds.

Long story short: delete them  :agree:
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
Quote: (nealhunt @ Sep. 11 2009, 23:38 )

I think if the Black Guardians are priced appropriately, the 1/3 restriction is not needed.  I think it's a legacy from the original list where the black guardians cost the same and were effectively a "free" upgrade for a certain portion of the army.  

Correct.

I would still question the restrictions on the upgrades for Black Guardians, but otherwise the simple changes should be made.
Author:  Moscovian [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
Only played them twice but I can't imagine that it would unbalance them and streamlining seems appropriate.

While on the subject of Ulthwe', what was the justification for the SR5 again?  I found no real balance issues with the list but I was just wondering what the thought process was for making them SR5 instead of SR4.  It seems the SR4 would apply to them just as well, but maybe I'm missing something.
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
Quote: (Moscovian @ Sep. 14 2009, 14:23 )

While on the subject of Ulthwe', what was the justification for the SR5 again?

Basically, Ulthwé, due to its preponderance of Seers, is even more tricky and conniving than other Eldar, putting intricate plans into motion, particularly Eldrad's many cunning stunts.
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
Quote: (Chroma @ Sep. 14 2009, 09:33 )

particularly Eldrad's many cunning stunts.

Hehe, that reminds me of an old joke.  :laugh:
Author:  mattthemuppet [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
Quote: (Dwarf Supreme @ Sep. 14 2009, 09:43 )

Quote: (Chroma @ Sep. 14 2009, 09:33 )

particularly Eldrad's many cunning stunts.

Hehe, that reminds me of an old joke.  :laugh:

what a filthy mind :)

As to the Black Guardians, given their 1+ int, would allowing every Guardian fm to be Black Guardians unbalance the list? For 50pts extra (including the extra Farseer) I wouldn't have any issue with fielding only Black Guardians. Obviously you wouldn't be able to wield all 1+ units, but with a titan, Black Guardians and Aspects you could get at least 1/2 if not more as such.

The restrictions on Wraith construct upgrades would go someway towards balancing this I imagine.

If anyone wants me to (and TRC is willing), I can play test this tomorrow night.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
Quote: (Chroma @ Sep. 14 2009, 14:33 )

Quote: (Moscovian @ Sep. 14 2009, 14:23 )

While on the subject of Ulthwe', what was the justification for the SR5 again?

Basically, Ulthwé, due to its preponderance of Seers, is even more tricky and conniving than other Eldar, putting intricate plans into motion, particularly Eldrad's many cunning stunts.

That is such a bizare site.

I like Creed is in your bathroom.
Author:  dptdexys [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
Would the Black Guardians also lose their initiative of 1+ that they had in the previous lists.

If not they would need to keep some sort of restrictions otherwise they could do multiple activation retains without rolling a dice each turn and even do the triple retain without having to roll for it too.
Author:  mattthemuppet [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
Quote: (dptdexys @ Oct. 02 2009, 15:08 )

Would the Black Guardians also lose their initiative of 1+ that they had in the previous lists.

If not they would need to keep some sort of restrictions otherwise they could do multiple activation retains without rolling a dice each turn and even do the triple retain without having to roll for it too.

exactly. 'bout to start a game using them with the same 1+ int, let you know how it goes
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
Quote: (dptdexys @ Oct. 02 2009, 20:08 )

Would the Black Guardians also lose their initiative of 1+ that they had in the previous lists.

If not they would need to keep some sort of restrictions otherwise they could do multiple activation retains without rolling a dice each turn and even do the triple retain without having to roll for it too.

Blast markers...
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
If thats the counter measure I predict the boys in black will mass produce stormserpents, wraithgates etc.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  [Ulthwé] Possible Changes
PLus what dptdexys said in another post
Quote: 

The possibility of lots of cheap aspects activating on a 1+ less so with 2 troupes per host as it's harder to fit in the needed support.

Those aspects could also have falcons (not so cheap though) and this gives the ability to have falcons activating on a 1+.This can be done with 2 troupes per host but it makes adding in other support choices difficult not so with 3 troupes per host.

The ability to do good quality combined assaults with gaurdians and cheap aspects both in wave serpents (650 points with exarch and an engage range of 50cm) and not having it hurt through the activation count.
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