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Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=14492		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Flogus [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
Presently on the Epic_Fr forum, we are talking about the Eldar SHT Scorpion.

Its seems to be the ugly duckling of the Eldar SHT.
The portal of the Storm Serpent makes this SHT nearly an auto-include unit. (and fire power and FF are not bad).
Void Spinner is a great (the greattest ?) artillery tank, though only for Biel-tan.
Cobra fire power against war engines is enormous, fortunately short ranged, and delivered with AA ability.

And the Scorpion is not bad, but it gives a 'not enough' feeling, even more if we consider 5 Falcons cost the same than a Scorpion.
So we decide to explore any means to make the Scorpion equals the other Eldar SHT.

1st way to boost the Scorpion : upgrade the pulsars :
Today pulsars : 2*MW2+ @ 60cm
This makes these hits
+1 bonus : 1,66 (sustain fire)
no bonus : 1,66
-1 malus : 1,33 (cover or double move or regroup)
-2 malus : 1 (cover and double move or regroup)

New pulsar profiles were proposed :
2*MW2+ TK(1) @ 60cm
3*MW3+ @ 60cm
3*MW2+ @ 60cm

IMO TK(1) is a too radical change for the Scorpion. The Titan Killer SHT is the Cobra, not the Scorpion.

3*MW3+ makes these hits :
+1 bonus : 2.5
no bonus : 2
-1 malus : 1.5
-2 malus : 1
so better than presently, but not so much.

3*MW2+ makes these hits :
+1 bonus : 2.5
no bonus : 2.5
-1 malus : 2
-2 malus : 1.5
even better : +50% more fire power.

IMO, 3*MW3+ would be the best : better than now, but the Scorpion do not need a big upgrade to be played equally often the other SHT.


A 2nd solution makes its apparition today : what about transfering the eldar AA missiles launcher from the Cobra to the Scorpion ?

Well, I don't know where the AA E.M.L comme from. WYSIWYG from Epic40k or E/A Cobra mini ?
The Cobra E.M.L is from Imperial Armour Apocalypse, non ? (and it replaces shuriken cannon, not add to it, right ?).
So, as wh40k Scorpion has the same E.M.L option, with not exchange  its shuriken cannon to get a brand new Eldar missiles launcher ?

Cobra is enough good, even without AA ability.
And with an AA ability, the Scorpion (whatever any changes to its pulsars) would proudly compete with a Falcons (with Firestorm) troupe.


So, I would like to listen to your feeling about the need to upgrade the Scorpion and/or the options I talked about.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
I think the Scorpion is a fine choice compared to 5 Falcons.  It's a typical WE tradeoff.  Just like IG SHTs versus Leman Russ, the Scorpion has less firepower but increased durability at equal points.
Author:  Hojyn [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
If change is needed, the AA option would be OK, I think.

But I don't think any change is needed actually, the Scorpion doesn't need anything to be a competitive choice.
Author:  Moscovian [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
I like the Scorpion as well.  This bad boy has great range, scores 2 hits most of the time, and unless something has reinforced armor, the target 'goes away' with little-to-no argument.  The fact that you can't repress its fire is always nice as well.  To be honest, I like fielding a trinity of Cobra/Scorpion/Storm Serpent (in larger games where I can afford it).  They are too big to ignore, do reasonable damage at long range, do great damage at midrange, and then become frightful at short range as you not only get the Cobra's BP weapon but the assault threat from the Wraithgate.

Edit: Make that suppress, not repressed (Help! Help! I'm being repressed!) ???
Author:  Flogus [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
I agree the Scorpion is not bad. But it lost much with the "Pulse>*2" reform. Was the original pulsed Scorpion a no-brainer unit ?
Author:  Mephiston [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
My scorpian gained with the pulse change. I lost count of the number of times my first shot missed  :sigh:
Author:  semajnollissor [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
My biggest gripe with the Scorpion is that they don't offer as much flexibility as the other EoVs. Cobras are good versus everything: WEs, AVs, and infantry; Void Spinners might not kill things outright, but they'll put BMs on everything; Storm Serpents have a more stategic use that is less dependant on the composition of the enemy army.

Scorpions, though, really need to be used against "peer" enemy units (unshielded superheavies or slow RA AVs like land raiders or stompas). Add to that the fact that there's a better than 50% chance that (on a double move) you'll only hit with one of the pulse laser blasts. Sure, you can pretty reliably kill one non-RA unit per turn, but that doesn't usually help much. It just makes the Scorpion frustrating to me.

[As an aside, those of you familiar with 3rd ed 40k might recall how frustrating the eldar fire prism was, with it's one shot weapon that had a 50% chance of missing. Why would anyone bother taking that, even if it was one of the most difficult tanks to kill in the game?]

Personally, I think that if they were to get a boost, that it should be something that gives it one or two more minor shooting attacks, like adding a second shuriken cannon. At least then it would be more in line with the tempest model that alot of people still use. My preference would be to replacing the shuriken cannon with a two scatter lasers. Then an eldar player would have a choice between taking pot shots at long range or getting close in and unloading all barrels. It would also allow the eldar player to threaten shielded units [titans] since the scatter lasers would make it twice as capable at stripping shields.
Author:  vytzka [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
Quote: (Hena @ 08 Jan. 2009, 20:26 )

Flogus, this is probably a reflection from FERC choice of upgrading marine armour to 5+RA

They did what? :oops:
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
Quote: (Flogus @ 08 Jan. 2009, 18:43 )

I agree the Scorpion is not bad. But it lost much with the "Pulse>*2" reform. Was the original pulsed Scorpion a no-brainer unit ?

Yep.  Scorpions averaged almost as many MW hits as Falcons did AT hits, they had longer range, and were much more durable.  Total no-brainer.

The Scorpion didn't actually lose that much going to a flat 2 shots.  It actually only lost about 20% of firepower.  I know the perception is that 2+ Pulse is practically guaranteed to get 3 hits, but average number of hits is actually only 2.10.
Author:  Flogus [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
Vindicator and Predator armour is now 5+RA instead of 4+ in F-ERC version of SM lists.
Author:  vytzka [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
Ah, I understood that as giving Marine infantry 5+ RA. Which would really be a bit OTT.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Need to upgrade the SHT Scorpion ?
Semaj:  Did you never play Michael with his Scorpions?  He rarely double moved.  He did a good job of pre-positioning so he was almost always using a popup-shoot-move action.

MW is best against 4+ saves, RA or not.  Either way they double the effect.  There are lots of units with 4+.

Also, "killing one non-RA unit" on a double move sounds lame when you put it like that, but it can kill one non-RA unit at 85cm away and remain 85cm away.  That's pretty amazing for assault prep, breaking choice formations late in the game while also taking objectives and pulling stunts like breaking IG arty batteries from the Eldar deployment zone.
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