I've played a few more games with the dark eldar, and have come up against a few more issues with the list:

The Tormentor Titan seems pretty useless for the cost. It's not specialised enough in any one role to be worth taking. It has roughly the same firepower as a Vessel of Pain for twice the price, yet it's not really reliable enough in an assault either compared to other assault titans. It seems to me the 500 points would almost always be better spent on a couple more VoPs (more DC, same shields, twice the firepower). With only TK(1) on the extra close combat attacks it's not much good at taking on other titans or war engines, and is too fragile to risk against big firefighty formations. It's alright at shooting, and alright at assaults, but because of that lack of specialisation it doesn't really have a role.

The unit upgrades are almost universally much too expensive, to the extent that they will almost all never be taken. Small formation sizes are already enforced by the max infantry limit of 8 bases, so why limit it further by making the upgrades too expensive to use? The only one that seems all worth taking is the warp bests upgrade.

Why, for example, does the upgrade of 2 Wych bases cost 125 points, when for 200 you get 6 bases? I'm mystified, especially when 2 Warp Beasts are substancially better, and cost the same 125 points. Why would anyone ever take the Wych upgrade?

There are other cost imbalances in the list as well. Hellions aren't worth taking when compared to Reavers. Is the scout rule really worth 10cm of speed, a point of armour save and a downgrade to jump pack from skimmer? I really doubt it.

Scourges still seem a bit overpowered as well. Their combination of abilities makes them extremely effective, especially if they can teleport into a bunker or building to nullify their weak armour save.

Incubi seem overpriced. An expensive CC specialist unit with no shooting that probably contains the supreme commander and has to cross no-man's land to be effective is a really obvious target for enemy shooting, and almost always dies before it does anything.

Just a few thoughts, I'll probably add more at a later date.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I've been away for awhile but I think I can take a crack at explaining some of this given how I came up with most of it.

Tormentor: Merely overcoming the initial "DE dont has army, noob" attitude was hard enough, adding in a Titan was heresy. The idea was it was half-way from Revenant to Phantom but it didnt really work out since the playtesting of the unit was minimal at best. Its biggest selling point was my concept sketches.

Upgrades: Yeah we went too far on that too. THe cost was to drive down unit sizes, but given how underwhelming the DE can be it proves now to have been unnecessary.

Wych vs Beast: Wyches get a Raider so its 3 units vs 2, not 2v2. If you're putting them in a Slavebringer then Beasts are the clear choice. If they need to move around or assault out of a webway then the extra 5cm speed + 5cm disembark + FF is nothing else can make or break you.

Hellions vs Reavers: Hellions are the underdo and really a very niche unit. The can enter buildings being their main advantage over bikes.

Scourges: They are beastly, yes. The DE really did need a good unit, it happens to be them. I think they should prolly have FF 5+ with 2 attacks or FF 3+ with one, but not 4+ with 2.

Incubi: I don't know what to make of them, we really wanted to avoid adding tons of MW units to the list and I think their FF got nerfed too hard in hindsight. Since basic DE have a 4+ it should prolly be 5+ on the Incubi to account for their Blasters and Shredders. Maybe even Lance FF.

In all I think its about time we start compiling errata for the yearly review of the DE list.

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Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

Welcome back scarik.

As long as your fielding questions, why were the Dark Eldar Cohorts given an initiative 2+? I can understand the Partisans but with the Kabals being 1+ I didn't understand why the Cohorts weren't +1 as well.

If you're looking for errata, here's a little bit of house cleaning:

What's the point of having the Dracon upgrade for the Coterie if you can't have more that one per formation? Upgrade the first to the Archon and then add another?

I'd rename the first upgrades to something like this:

Dracon     Add one Dracon character.     +50
Sybarite   Add one Sybarite character.   +25

I take it the Dracite was something in an older list that got carried over? Also, aside from what I mentioned above I don't think any formation could have more than one of each character. If you remove the Dracon upgrade from the Coterie you wouldn't have to bother with the "one per" notes.

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Dave

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I love the idea of the Tormentor, even if it doesn't really fit the DE way of war, and the designs are awesome, so much so that I made mine an exact copy of the one on the Raiders cover. Ingame, however, they are neither one thing nor t'other, and a pair of Vessels of Pain is almost always the better choice. It needs to be better at either shooting or assaulting, probably assaulting since that gives it a very different role to the VoP. TK(d3) rather than TK(1) on the close combat extra attacks?


Upgrades: Yeah we went too far on that too. THe cost was to drive down unit sizes, but given how underwhelming the DE can be it proves now to have been unnecessary.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Dracite is the female version of Dracon.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Keep the comments coming - FYI I have a batrep that is coming out from two weeks ago (I know, I am behind) that will address some of the concerns.

More than likely though the upgrade costs will change, although everyone can count on small bumps, not big jumps.  I am not keen on making radical changes on a list that plays well, albeit relatively underpowered.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... =14728;hl=

This batrep touches on two points that Zombocom brought up, albeit the opposite opinion.  It goes to the value of battle reports to show that there is tremendous variety in the results of how a unit or formation or army performs.

My experiences with the Coterie were exactly the same as Zombocom's until I decided to adjust my game style to capitalize on the formation strengths.  In this case, it worked for both the Hellions and the Coterie and made for a successful game.

Please keep posting your information.  It will certainly help when it comes time for the army list review.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

But that isn't my point. Sure, it's possible to use a Coterie well, and sometimes they have performed for me, but on balance they're still underpowered for the price. This is the danger of battle reports - just because they worked on this occasion doesn't mean they usually will.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I'm not making a blanket statement - I'm just suggesting that changing them will require a lot more playtesting by more people simply as evidenced here.  Others have mentioned the same thing I just did about the Coterie but I never had the stones to play them right, so it isn't just one batrep but several.  

What I'm getting at is we might just be seeing a natural spread of results and the formation may be fine.  Just keep plugging.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Sure, more playtesting is always helpful, but drawing conclusions solely from battle reports is as flawed as not using them at all.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

N=1 is better than N=0.

Look, it's hard to large Ns for the study...  harder still when the list changes with each test.

Agreed.  That's why we froze the list for one year.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.