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Thoughts on the Dark Eldar
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Author:  zombocom [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar

I've played a couple of games with the Dark Eldar now, and I'm starting to get the hang of how they work.

I do have a couple of concerns however...

Scourges: Are they a bit cheap? Teleporting, 6 Lance shots, 30cm movement and an extra firefight attack all for 225 points?

Their main downside is obviously the 6+ armour save, but that can largely be negated by teleporting into a building or bunker.

Dark Eldar Infantry: Not sure on these. The ranged shot seems pretty pointless, especially considering they're usually doubling. Why are they initiative 1+ when Eldar Guardians are 2+?

Warp Beasts: 30cm with infiltrate? Is that really neccesary? The rest of the formation would get left behind anyway...

Helions: These seem underpowered when compared to Reavers. Same cost, but 10cm slower with a worse armour save, and all they really gain is Scout. Reavers seem a much better choice for the same points.

Tormentor: Overgunned a little maybe? Given that it's mainly an engagement beast, its ranged fire seems a little powerful, particularly the 2 TK shots.

I understand that some of these are ballanced against the fragile nature of the list, but I thought I'd bring them up anyway.

Author:  Moscovian [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar

Could you post a batrep (or synposis) for your games?  It would make it easier to address those concerns.  Offhand, you hit the nail on the head with the fragility of the army list in general.  

On a technical point the Warp Beasts are 15cm with infiltrate (so they have a 30cm engage).  If you were playing them as 30cm with engage I can understand why you would freak out. :;):   Although that does mean you've found the first serious errata in the Raiders book. :glare:

Warriors were given an initiative of 1+ over the 2+ for Guardians because Warriors are just that.  Warriors.  Guardians are artists and craftworld plumbers and who knows what else besides being Guardians.  

As for the Tormentor... I don't know what to tell you without seeing a batrep where it dominated the board.  So far it hasn't happened and the biggest complaint on it is that it isn't strong enough for the points.

Author:  zombocom [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar

I didn't take any notes, but I'll give a rough battle report of my last game.

3000 points

My list:

Gate
Kabal Coterie + Barge + Archon
Kabal Syndicate + Ravager + Dracon
Kabal Syndicate + Ravager
Vessel of Pain
Wych Cult + Beasts + Sybarite in Slavebringer
Reavers
Scourge
Tormentor
Razorwings

I played against Jstr19's Tau, using a modified version of the FW rules.

His list was something like this (probably way off, I don't know the list that well...)

Manta
Fire Warriors + Ethereal
Crisis Suits
Crisis Suits
Stealth Suits
Battle Suits
Hammerheads with upgrades
2 fighters (I forget the name)

Deployment wise, I kept a syndicate off board to come from the portal, and the scourges teleported into some bunkers in the center of the board. Jstr19 garisoned some of the suits on overwatch.

Knowing the Manta was coming down I decided to split my deployment. I put the Reavers on my blitz in the left hand side of the board, with the VoP nearby. The Tormentor, Coterie and second Syndicate all deployed on the right side behind some buildings .Jstr19 deployed spread across the board, with his hammerheads on his extreme right, and suits spreading out from there.

Turn 1:

Tau win the strategy roll, and the Manta arrives. As I had expected it lands near my blitz, right next to my Reavers. The Manta shot at the VoP, stripping its shadowfields and then the fire warriors onboard followed up by assaulting the Reavers, wiping them out for little in the way of return casualties.

This proved a mistake however, as Jstr19 had forgotten that my Scourges were in range to sustain fire at his Battlesuits. With a very fluky set of dice rolls I manage to kill 4 of them, rendering them useless for the rest of the game.

I retained to order an air assault from my Wyches in their Slaverbringer. Because of the positioning of the Hammerheads with their Skyray I was able to fly on unmolested, and engaged the Crisis Suits on Jstr19's left flank. After some very fluky suit saves we drew the combat, but I won by 2 in the refights. The suits fled into the corner of the board. The Hammerheads then advanced and wiped the VoP off the board.

I can't remember the exact sequence for the rest of the turn, but the Incubi advanced toward the Manta/Fire Warriors hoping to be able to pull off an engagement the next turn. Jstr19 spent a couple of activations smashing the Wyches left in the open, who promptly broke and played no further role in the battle. The Tormentor doubled up the board and shot at the Stealthsuits in a building, though only killed one. The on board Syndicate doubled up to support the Tormentor. My bombers flew in to rake the unbroken crisis suit squad, breaking them, though taking a blast marker from Jstr19's CAPing fighters in the process. My offboard Syndicate stood down, hoping to win the strategy roll to allow me to provide support fire for the incubi in their assault on the firewarriors.

In the rally phase, a lone crisis suit rallied, and most formations shed blasts.

Turn 2.

The strategy roll was essential here, and it went Jstr19's way. That left my Incubi high and dry, as they got engaged into a firefight with the fire warriors, who had the manta in support. I was probably foolish to put them where they were, and they evaporated rapidly.

Jstr19 then made a bit of a mistake. The Hammerheads were out on the empty flank with nothing to shoot at, as I was advancing up the other side of the board with most of my formations, in a classic Dark Eldar flank attack. He doubled toward the middle of the board, to bring my syndicate into range, though he failed to kill anything more than a ravager. Unfortunately he had left the Hammerheads near both the webway portal and the scourges in their board-centre bunkers...

I brought the syndicate through the poral, shooting down a couple of tanks and leaving them in a support fire position. The Scourges then engaged, firefighting the Hammerheads to death, before using their hit and run move to jump back into their lovely bunkers.

Jstr19 was now struggling, with only a few activations left. He sent his fighters to try to shoot down by newly arrived syndicate, but I got very lucky with my saves and nothing died. I then focused the rest of my forces in breaking the stealth suits and mopping up the remains of the crisis and battle suits.

The fire warriors doubled away from my blitz towards one of the other objectives in my half.

I can't remember what the manta shot at this turn...

In the rally phase, the remaining stealthsuits rallied, as did the last standing crisis suit.

Turn 3

Jstr19 once again wins the initiative, and moves the Manta onto the blitz, while evaporating most of my webwayed syndicate. The fire warriors then retain to try to engage the scourges, which would have been very damaging for my plans. Luckily for me, they failed to activate (needing a 4+ by this point), and with the supreme commander having been picked off by a titan killer shot from a razorwing the assault failed.

It was now a case of mopping up for me. The tormentor wiped the last stealthsuits off the map, while my surviving syndicate broke the last crisis suit, then headed back to grab a couple of objectives. Jstr19's planes then failed to activate, leaving my scourges to run to the blitz unmolested. I now had the game won 2-1, so I sent my slavebringer in to land next to the manta. Its shadowfield really saved me, reducing the Manta's 8 AA5+ shots to 6+, which allowed it to land to contest my blitz.

Final Score 2-0 to the Dark Eldar (Blitz, Take and Hold)

Author:  zombocom [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar

RE: the warp beasts. Raiders is the first time I've looked at this list, so I had no idea it was a typo. Shame it wasn't spotted earlier!

As you can see from the battle report, the Scourge Flight was definately the star of the show. All 4 of its big bonuses came in very handy.

Teleporting into bunkers
Lancing the Battle Suits
Extra firefight attack for taking out the hammerheads
30cm speed and jetpacks to make a run for the blitz on the last turn.

They just seem to have too many bonuses for their points. I think they either need to lose one of the bonuses, such as the extra ff attack or go up in price.

I think an army spamming them would be really nasty.





Author:  Moscovian [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar

You came out hard and fast and kept the momentum rolling with the DE - something that can be difficult to do. ?Jstr19 made some tactical errors that you capitalized on... Sounds like a great game! ?

Given the game I can see why you feel the way you do about the Scourges. ?I've had a couple games go that way as well where the Scourges just pounded on my opponent's forces. ?I've also had games where they were wiped out to the man (uhm, wiped out to the Xenos) before I could activate them. ?Teleporters always have the potential to really upset things.

I'll keep the information in mind, however, in case a trend is starting with the concerned units.

EDIT: I am so annoyed at the Warp Beast speed error.  I really thought we caught everything.  Of course I found a handful of minor errors here and there once I thumbed through the proof, but I hadn't seen a datafax error until now. :angry:





Author:  Jstr19 [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar

Yeah I got owned in that game. The Manta did manage to kill its points value though so it wasn't a total waste. I did feel that the Transports and aircraft were also a bit too resilient but the Transports probably got a bit lucky (though I shouldn't really complain here as the epic engagement of crisis suits vs wytches I past like 14 saves) in and I didn't have enough AA or aircraft to really say this for sure. I want a re-match when u get back against the Tau RAF list to see if they really are a bit too good.

Author:  Moscovian [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar

I'm actually pleased to see a Dark Eldar win!  It can be done but I'd be hesitant to call the Dark Eldar "too good" unless I saw a LOT of wins compared to losses.  My last two games were a win and a loss, and before that 2 losses.  Charad can give you similar feedback as could Rug, TheLimey, and some of the other DE players.  I'm definitely interested in seeing a re-match though!

Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar

I wouldn't have a clue how to use the army. Probably load up with 4 squadrons of bombers and go TK'ing like I used to do with the Tau A-10, however weaker armour here makes it a far trickier thing.

Author:  zombocom [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar

I did find it amusing that when I first told Jstr19 I was going to make a Dark Eldar list he snorted, thinking they'd be terrible. It made victory all the sweeter...

I am a little concerned about some of the more extreme list builds possible though, for example:

3 x Syndicate
6 x Scourge
4 x Bombers
Webway

3000 points, 13 activations, potentially nothing deploying onboard.





Author:  Jstr19 [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar

To good is probably a bit srong I admit. Overall the list looks fairly OK. I just had a few questions about it. Transport vehicles with a 4+ save when Rhino's, Chimera and Devilfish all have a 5+ seemed a bit much. A transport aircraft that is DC2 a unit upgrade and with a shadow fields seems a bit much as well. The initiative of the warrior kabal was aner issue we had. I couldn't see why they wold have the initiaive of Marines, Titans and elite troops when Guardians, Guardsmen and Fire Warriors and all similar rank and file units have a 2+.

Author:  zombocom [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar


(Jstr19 @ Jun. 11 2008,21:53)
QUOTE
To good is probably a bit srong I admit. Overall the list looks fairly OK. I just had a few questions about it. Transport vehicles with a 4+ save when Rhino's, Chimera and Devilfish all have a 5+ seemed a bit much. A transport aircraft that is DC2 a unit upgrade and with a shadow fields seems a bit much as well. The initiative of the warrior kabal was aner issue we had. I couldn't see why they wold have the initiaive of Marines, Titans and elite troops when Guardians, Guardsmen and Fire Warriors and all similar rank and file units have a 2+.

Sure, raiders have a 4+ save, but being a light vehicle they should need to take a lot more saves. I'm not sure one way or the other on this yet, I'd need to playtest a lot more.

The Slavebringer is the same cost as a thunderhawk or Vampire, and is very similar in abilities. Remember, it only has a 4+ save! Once the shadowfield falls it's an absolute sitting duck!

You should have shot at it while it was on the ground to get rid of the shadowfield.

Another thought I have about the list is the sheer number of upgrades available. There are loads of them, but almost none of the are actually viable. Generally they allow me to add 33% more troops to a formation, but for 50% more cost.

I understand that you're trying to push it towards smaller formation, but almost all the upgrades are just rubbish value.

I mean 6 Wyches for 200 is good value, but 2 Wyches for 125 is crazy. The upgrades are not even priced well against each other. For example, for a Wych formation the Wych upgrade and Warp Beast upgrade cost the same, though the beasts are superior. Why would anyone take more Wyches?





Author:  zombocom [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar


(Rug @ Jun. 11 2008,22:21)
QUOTE
Wyches can ff.

Scourages are useful but if they take BMs when teleporting they really suffer. My main argument is that if you spam scourages then you'll miss out on some of the other great support formations, reavers, talos, grotesques, the spacecraft are pretty good too....

Sure, on a 6+... an extra 3+ CC attack is worth more than a 6+ ff, particularly on infiltrators.

Sure, the other support formations are good, but I don't think they're under-pointed, unlike the Scourge flight.

Note that if you take 6 formation you won't even need to teleport them all. With their speed it's viable to deploy one or two normally to avoid blast markers.

All theory of course, but they definately seem worryingly cheap for their abilities.

Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar

Still, no one disagrees on 4 lots of bombers? :)

Author:  zombocom [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Thoughts on the Dark Eldar

The bombers obviously hit very hard on the first turn, but on the second they do basically nothing. Other than the TK shot they don't have much else.

2 tormentors might prove more reliable?

Though I guess you could spread the firepower out with the bombers to fire every turn.

shrug.





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