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Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:55 pm 
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Dark Eldar vs. Adeptus Mechanicus

a.k.a. Light Vehicles vs. Titans?!

Army Lists
AMTL (3,000 on the button), 8 activations

LEGIO
Reaver Titan 650
w/2 turbo laser destructors
1 melta cannon

Ordinatus Mars 450

Warhound Titan Pair 500
1 light turbo laser destructor
1 plasma blast gun

1 light turbo laser destructor
1 light inferno gun

AUXILIA
Castellan Household 500

Paladin Household 250

Warhound 250
2 light turbo laser destuctors

Warhound 250
1 light vulcan mega bolter
1 plasma blast gun

NAVY
Thunderbolts 150

Technology Raiding Party (3000 pts even), 9 activations
Dark Eldar Cores
Coterie with Barge upgrade 475
Syndicate with Sybarite and Ravager upgrade 275
Ravager with Vessel of Pain upgrade 550 (BTS Goal)

Support
4 Wyches with 2 Raiders #1 175
4 Wyches with 2 Raiders #2 175
6 Wyches with Dracite, Beasts upgrade, plus Slavebringer (500+200)
Talos with Perditos upgrade 350

Other
Kashnarak 50
Ravens 200
Webway 50

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:58 pm 
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Set up:
AMTL set up primarily in the center, with the Ordinatus guarded closely by a pair of Warhounds.  

Dark Eldar (excsue my two-dimensional mini's) set up heavy on the right flank and the left flank, with a gaping hole in the center.  Kashnarak remained off board for turn 1.  Wych formation #1 was inside Webway.  Slavebringer loaded with large Wych formation was offboard.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:59 pm 
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Dark Eldar Set-up.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:27 pm 
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Turn 1. Strategy roll goes to AMTL.

ePilgrim CAPs his Thunderbolts. Smiling that he gets a +1 when shooting at me.

I immediately ground attack his left flank Warhound to place a BM (and strip shields).  Unfortunately, his Thunderbolts completely wipe out the Ravens in one fell swoop.  I now have no flak.  The Titan smiles triumphantly as my paper flyers turn into sawdust.

Paladins move forward cautiously, trying to avoid the Webway portal that occupies the center of the board (somebody doesn't like my arena beast).

Ravagers double and attack the far Warhound again, stripping one shield and leaving it very much intact.

The Warhound retaliates, attacking the Ravagers and stripping the VoP of its Shadowfields in one volley.  Uhm.. Check please!

Wyches #2 double forward and shoot at the Warhound.  I'm laying BMs but that's about it.  The Wyches take cover in the fortification and park their vehicles in the back where the Titan police won't see them. :D

ePilgrim is tired of dancing around the center of the board and decides to advance the Warhound pair to attack my Supreme Commander.  Once again the Shadowfields are wiped out and a DC is lost, but the formation remains intact.  However, the Ordinatus is now undefended in the back...

In his haste, the AMTL leadership has failed to recognize there is a second air unit (the Slavebringer), otherwise he may not have unCAP'd so quickly.  The Wyches unload and get virtually all units into BtB contact with the vehicle.  Without its shields to protect it the great machine is ripped apart by Warp Beasts and Wyches bent on obtaining its secrets.  The great Titan nearby goes to lend support, but finds he is too late.  After the Slavebringer departs, the Wyches -with nowhere else to go- close with the Titan toward the rear.

The Reaver turns to bring his mighty guns to bear and fires at the Wyches.  The formation is broken and beaten, but not wiped out.  They find refuge in the corner of the board.

The second Warhound fires his ignore-cover weaponry into the fortification, causing some (but not much) damage on the newly arrived Wyches.

The second formation of Wyches fly from the Wraithgate and fire at the 1st Warhound, stripping its remaining shield and breaking it.

The Castellans fail activation, but fire anyway, wiping the Wyches out completely.

Talos march up and take a position of cover.

The Coterie and the Syndicates double and make attempts at the Warhounds, but to no avail.  Still they are closer and they have some cover.

End of Turn: Warhound remains broken.  The Dark Eldar remove all BMs.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:05 am 
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Turn 2.  Kashnarak remains in his hole.  AMTL are cowards, but win the Strategy roll again anyway.

Death of the Supreme Commander.  Warhound pair move and fire on the Barge of Pleasure.  Without Shadowfields, it crumbles and sinks to the ground.  The Supreme Commander lives, but remains hiding and broken behind the rocks.

Ravagers fire at the second lone Warhound, then Wyches and Raiders fire at it and break it with a DC loss to the walking machine, but not before the Ravagers are broken by its own firing.

Thunderbolts see the opportunity to end the Dark Eldar's leadership and streak in - the Coterie is no more.

The Perditor moves up and fire at the Warhounds, but to no avail.  Nothing happens.

The Castellans take their opportunity to wipe out the remaining small formation of Wyches, leaving only four of them stuck behind enemy lines.

The Syndicate fires at the Paladins and breaks them, sending them retreating back to their original lines.

The Warhounds fire at the Warriors in Raiders, but -with their MW spent on turn 1, they do very little.

In the end of turn two, the Dark Eldar have sustained heavy losses, but the AMTL have three broken formations (no rally), one destroyed formation, and are sitting in their original position.  If only the Dark Eldar finish the job, they will claim an amazing salvage.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:19 am 
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Turn 3 - The Kashnarak arrives... and the Warhounds are the closest formation to the gate.  Only 30cm away, there is little they can do but suffer...

The arena beast lumbers across the battlefield, 40cm infiltrate move, slamming into the closest Warhound and destroying it.  The damage done in the firefight is enough to wound the beast, yet it lumbers closer to the Legio's main weapon and preps for the next turn.  

Strategy goes to Dark Eldar, who fire at the one unbroken Warhound and send it back with its bretheren.  

The Castellans have another plan in mind though - utter annihilation.  They crush the formation and send the remaining three Ravagers broken to the far corner of the board.  

The Perditor and Talos grab the closest objective and fire at the Reaver, but little happens again.

Slavebringer does a run on the Castellans in the hope of breaking them, but barely touches them.

Thunderbolt fighters high above swoop down and use the same plan against the Ravagers.  Already broken, the formation vanishes into nothingness.

A few actions later and the board stands as follows:

Perditor/Talos broken and holding objective. Rallies!
Wyches in backfield.  Still alive!
Slavebringer. Still alive!
Kashnarak, at 1/2 strength.
And that's it.  The damage was extensive.  If only the remaining forces of AMTL can remain broken, things could still be salvaged.

Legio Reaver sheds all but one blastmarker.
Other half of Warhound pair... Rallies. :O
1st Warhound... Rallies.  :O
2nd Warhound... Rallies.  :O
Castellans.... Rally and shed all BMs.  :O

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:36 am 
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Turn 4.  Kashnarak moves and attacks Reaver, but is killed on a critical.  Little remains of the beast.

Rally goes to ATML.

The Dark Eldar survivors flee for their survival, giving up the fight.

At this point I resigned with two land-based formations left (and they were at 1/2 strength).  This was a rough battle to fight, but at the beginning of turn 3 I was convinced I had it won.  

Things that contributed to the DE loss:

1. Loss of airpower.  My sacrifice of my Ravens was just not worth it.  With no more flak, the Thunderbolts were able to dish out two critical killing blows (my Supreme Commander and my BTS goal) without interference.  

2. Castellans.  They are obscenely powerful.  I don't want this to be a bash the AMTL list, but it is considered by many to be an overpowered list.  These are a good reason why.

3. Light vehicles.  I won't change anything since the Raider and Ravager ARE light vehicles, but it certainly made it harder on the saves with BP weapons.

4. Fearless.  ATML has so many fearless units, it was difficult to take advantage of the classic broken targets.  After I polished off his support, I was out of targets and forced to attack the Castellans and Reaver, which did absolutely nothing.  The lack of assaultable targets really forced the DE into a shooting war that they were not going to win.

Things that surprised me:

1. I could not believe how well the DE did at first.  The cautious hit-n-run that many feel is lacking in the Craftworlds was quite visible in the DE.  And it paid off for awhile.  The staying power was just not there in the end though.

2. Kashnarak.  This thing was fun.  Its lack of appearance was just as helpful as when it came out.  ePilgrim was terrified to go anywhere near the wraithgate, which bottlenecked him in his own backfield.  When it did arrive, it was brutal!  But fear not folks, the Kashnarak can die (and did).  It was also going to attack me in turn 3 because I positioned myself poorly.  Had ePilgrim not messed up and attacked the Talos, the Kashnarak would have killed me and he could have won on turn 3 (instead of turn 4).

3. Vessel of Pain.  This is a keeper.  Very powerful but fragile too.  I like the dichotomy.

That's it, folks.  Comments welcome.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:43 am 
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Thanks for the battle report Moscovian!  Looks like a lot of (tough) fun!

I'm focusing on running Light Eldar currently, but I'll be back to the darkness soon enough...  :angry:

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:54 am 
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The Castellans and Crusaders look awesome (Wow! 500 points for 6 BP MW! With an 90cm range!) but they really aren't as good as you'd expect if approached right. Yeah they're 2 DC war-engines with 1 Void Shield each... They're 5+ in CC and 4+ at FF. Air-assaults will eat them alive (I was kindof surprised you didn't kill them with your air-dropping units!) But all you really need to do is break them. A Manticore Company, 650 points, can basically break them automatically (They just have to score at least 2 hits. Not that hard). They're slow, essentially just  high-powered artillery units. And are quite expensive for what they do, to be honest. They still need LoS as well since they don't have Indirect Fire. Best advice I can give about fighting against them is take them as a priority target. It's much like a Manticore Company in an IG force. You NEED to kill it or it's BP is going to kill you!

They might be needing an up in cost to 650 but I don't think they need more then that (At that point they cost as much as a Reaver. Which can also take 2x Quake Cannons and a Carapace Landing Pad to get around those pesky 'Needs line of sight' and 'Has to be within range' issues they suffer from. Plus has more void shields, and is MUCH better in the assault!)

From all the bat-reps I've heard and everything I've seen about the Dark Eldar... I think they're under-powered as is. I have yet to see a battle  involving them where in they actually win that I can remember. I've played them against Necrons and Eldar before the tournament and lost consistently. And the only reason I did well at the tournament was a combination of good luck and the inexperience of my opponents IMHO. They ARE a list that you'll need to pack a few proper tools to fight (Some kind of TK weapons are a very good plan if you can). But no more so then something like the Orks taking a nearly-all-aircraft army or the Marines fielding an army of THawk-carried Terminators with only a few ground units and as many Warhounds as they can take. The trouble is it's a very flexible list meaning you can field a lot of different variations and that makes it tough to plan to fight against. But no more so then the IG, Orks or Marines, IMHO.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:24 am 
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Well, I couldn't reach the Castellans with my regular guys and as for the airdrop...  I had my choice of a completely undefended Ordinatus that drops 10BP or the well defended Castellans that drop 6BP.  

It wasn't brain surgery.

And I agree the Dark Eldar were underpowered, but we just tweaked them with this current list (1.1) and they performed quite well in my opinion.  I personally didn't expect them to last more than 2 turns, and the game could have swung the other way had he not rallied.

I also made some errors in judgement toward the end, as well as on the list choices.  But I shouldn't have to customize my list to beat the AMTL.  Likewise if a formation needs adjusting from 500 to 650 (or even 600) they are severely out of whack.  Past them I really didn't mind the AMTL list too much (on first sight anyway).

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:38 am 
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for my reactions,

I must say the DE are very aggressive and play very much like thier 40k counterparts, but in the end they were very vulnerable to a shooty army list like this AMTL I chose.

Overall the unit that Moscovians underperformer was the Talos formation...in consideration of the other formation this is too slow! seriously slow. so slow that I had to wait for it.

If my Ord Mars (a very sad if too!)  had got the chance to fire I don't think I would have ever seen them near the middle of the table.

As for my own list the Ordinatus are very intimidating, but as noted in this Bat-Rep very prone to being the focus of the opponents because of thier potential  :laugh:

The Castellans are quite gross, regardless of Ilushia'scomments about what could deal with them, Moscovian could not get the right units close enough and still focus on the game.

The big dog was funny...even if it was snacking on my stuff, the concept was sound and entertaining  :p

All in all Moscovian was 'in the hunt' for 2/3rds of the game and only my very lucky rally phase pointed to his inevitable loss...he played well I got lucky IMO.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:33 pm 
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I'd agree on the Talos.  In hindsight I would take it without the Perditor and have it transported or come through the Wraithgate.  As it is is is very slow and has few options.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:55 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Jul. 31 2006,06:24)
QUOTE
But I shouldn't have to customize my list to beat the AMTL.

I think that might be the main problem with the ATML list. Yes, it might be overpowered and yes, it does have a lot of fearless units, but I agree that you shouldn't have to tailor your army to defeat it.

Thanks for the Bat Rep, Moscovian.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:43 pm 
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I don't think you really do. But you will need a few TK weapons (Personally I pack at least 1-2 TK weapons into every list I write if possible. Simply because of the large numbers of Super Heavy Tanks and similar items which float around in Epic. I want something I can point at your Storm Serpent/Shadowsword/Warhounds/Warlord/Phantom/Scorpion or whatever other similar unit you field and make it feel afraid.)

I don't really think the list is over-powered. It does have the problem of 'The list has a lot of extreme formations' in it. But a number of other lists can do that too (Black Legion with 2 max-sized Assault Companies of 3 Deathwheels plus 3 Ferals and a max-sized Chosen formation with a Daemon Prince at 3000 points, IG with 2 Shadowsword Companies and a Tank company plus Deathstrikes, 4x Warhounds, throw Hydras into the Shadowswords and Tank companies. Orks with 4x Landas and 2x Stompa-Mobz with Supa-Stompas. Or with 2x 'uge Blitz Brigades with 3 Oddboyz each, 2x 'uge Warbands garrisoned forwards and whatever else you feel like). Yes, it is a very 'extreme' list. But there's no more difficulty doing that with other lists then with this one. Marines with 4x Warhounds, 3x Thunderhawks, 3x Terminators w/ Chaplains and 1x Land Speeders with a Chaplain or Librarian. All of those armies fit into 3000 points, all of them field insanely potent weapons and all of them are VERY hard to beat in a 'generic' setting where you don't know who you're fighting. With the AMTL at the very least if you know it's legal and there's a good chance someone's bringing it, you at least have an IDEA of what you'll want to bring with you.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Dark Eldar 1.1 vs. AMTL 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:20 pm 
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Ilushia,

I would love to see you play a few games of the Dark Eldar against the AMTL.

The counters are free (just the cost of printing).

Maybe I'm missing some tactical method?  ??? Remember, no min-maxing the list to customize it to an AMTL target.  If you have a chance to play it, I'd love to see the results.

As for me, I believe the new Archon is insisting on a target richer in souls and lighter on metal.  :p

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