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Hit and Run in assaults...
Markconz
 Post subject: Hit and Run in assaults...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:56 am 
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Played a 4 player game today. Biel Tan and Ulthwe vs 2 Steel Legion Players (6K a side but no BatRep sorry, just time for a game before it was back to the thesis writing  :( ).

Ulthwe seemed fine, but this Biel Tan player has really got the knack of wave serpent mounted aspects of the Dire Avenger kind...  Sure they are expensive but with the hit and run and exarchs they are murderous, and hard to counter (who would think 5+ RA would be so resistant...) 35cm charge in and FF, absolutely murder something and then back to starting location or other safety (or into support fire postion).

After seeing the Biel Tan do this yet again (against Steel Legion of all armies which should be better able to counter it better than most),  I'm wondering if maybe I was too strong in my opposition to Sotecs idea for limiting assault Hit and Run to 15cm... anyone else have that feeling? Or is it just us getting wacked again and over reacting? Perhaps I just need to be sterner and imitate Wellington at Waterloo in more deadly fashion "Put every gun to them sir!"  :D  

For record Sotec wanted to limit this:
In addition Eldar formations that wins an assault are allowed to move any distance up to their speed value when they consolidate, rather than being limited to a move of 5cms as would normally be the case.

to:
In addition Eldar formations that wins an assault are allowed to move any distance up to 15cm when they consolidate, rather than being limited to a move of 5cms as would normally be the case.

I argued that it made more sense that it was based on speed, rather than just 15cm, and that Aspects needed it to survive. However, after seeing these fancy dress elves in action once again, I'm starting to have second thoughts...  ??? Even the Biel Tan player expressed concerns about their power. My Eldar are Biel Tan too, but I don't seem to have as much luck... maybe because I have tended to take Howling Banshees or Fire Dragons rather than the good stuff...

I think both Sotec and MC23 may have had concerns about the Eldar titans doing this assault hit and run also.

I'm not advocating for a change, just curious what other peoples experiences have been on this issue?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Hit and Run in assaults...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:06 am 
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I only really hated it when playing against hordes of jet bikes (oh and when playing Matt once in a tourny) as they really get to abuse it with a mass rolling supporting ff attack.

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tarrisvaal
 Post subject: Hit and Run in assaults...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:31 am 
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It only seems to get overpowered when used alongside ridiculously fast units - jetbikes being high on this list. Most other units even with a full move should have difficulty finding somewhere where they cant be retaliated against later.

Dont forget, that to reduce the rule because of Bieltan does the same to Ulthwe and the Dark eldar - the latter two of which rely on small, fast and extremely vulnerable units of aspects/specialists. Biel tan looks scary because its fielding units twice the size of the other two armies, but they do pay through the nose for units capable of doing that kind of damage - and it only takes one strike with aircraft or artillery, or a unit able to catch up, for them to really start taking damage back.

Im not saying that there shouldn't be a capped movement limit on the rule - but i think 15cm is far too short. I'd be inclined to put the consolidation move maximum at 30cm (which would only really affect jetbikes and slightly curtail other fast units).

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Chroma
 Post subject: Hit and Run in assaults...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:54 pm 
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(Markconz @ Dec. 02 2007,08:56)
QUOTE
I'm not advocating for a change, just curious what other peoples experiences have been on this issue?

I think it seems to be more circumstantial then a systemic problem... you even hinted that the Wave Serpents made an unusual number of saves... lose one or two of those and the whole thing falls apart. ?And if they're doing that "zip away" thing after an assault, that means they're all mounted up in their Wave Serpents making for a juicy AT target!

Additionally, a fully kitted out Aspect Warhost is 550 points, over a sixth of a 3000 point army, it should be bad-ass! ?*laugh*

Almost all the Eldar "ridiculously fast units" have 5+ armour and, relatively, small unit sizes... overwatch and such should whittle them down nicely.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Hit and Run in assaults...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:13 pm 
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Yeah well these were the points I made to Sotec at the time too... :)

Also I think it is more the Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents (with Dark Reapers for the Exarchs) rather than anything else. Lots of hits and can FF clip so can do it from further away and retreat further away. Other Aspects are not nearly as much of a problem, and probably do need the H&R to survive.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Hit and Run in assaults...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:58 am 
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Your opponent seems to have been doing hit-&-RUN (which is after all what the title suggests). IIRC Sotec was much more concerned over "hit-&-HIT" tactics, consolidating forward to support another attack. While hard to achieve, this is where the real art of the Eldar come in - and obviously anything which has an inate 35 cm movement is ideal (like bikes, Hawks and Revenants) because of the force multiplication factors involved. I believe it was really here that he wanted to make the consolidation 15 cms to limit abuse of this especially for Phantoms and Warlocks etc.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Hit and Run in assaults...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:10 am 
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Sotec's concerns were also addressed by reducing the armor save of the jetbikes to help balance them out along with about TWELVE other nerfs.  I can't imagine that they need yet another.  No offense but it sounds like you just got outdone.  If it happens to several people over a dozen games then I'd be open to that discussion again, but personally I think we're fine.

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