@Kyuss: As you yourself have stated several times, you don't play with NetEA lists, and even if you did you could change the stats around if you werent happy about them for your own playgroup. Your reference to EUK banshees is quite typically flawed here, because EUK banshees have the EUK exarch special rule which makes a substantial difference.

Concerning your reference to Robert, I am not quite sure what is its relevance here? A good player wins more games than a bad player? A good player using a solid BTS rarely loses BTS?

Concerning Ginger's proposed special rule, a lot of people have expressed support of the idea that power weapons get represented in Epic. I like the current rule and believe it should be just reexpressed in simpler terms: the "assassin/power" attacks have to be allocated first. That way the player gets control over what units get allocated the "power hits", but no need for complicated mechanisms.

Once we get it sorted, other units in other armies can benefit from the rule.

Personally, I'd be in favour of Banshees with the following stats:

Inf 15 cm 5+ 4+ 5+ , Close combat "power attack", First strike
Notes: Infiltrate

As stated many times: I would be in favour of upping all CC exarchs attack to MW, or at least "power attack", to stimulate players to use them at all over FF Exarchs.

I have played a few games with so modified banshees and have them performing adequately, even in comparison to Warp spiders.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

For Cobras, Id' be more in favour of just upping their main Cannon to 3 BP, Ignore cover.

Concerning the Void spinners, I dont find them underpriced, and they certainly are not better than the current Scorpions. If peope have trouble with the comparison with Bsilisks, perhaps basilisks have a price issue, something which even the Guard AC seems to think (check current thread on SL changes).

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Minor nit, they are already CC2+ (at least in NetEA Compendium 2012).

I'd still prefer SSs, who deals (slightly) more damage and have better armour. The First Strike ability is really only useful against small formations.

The First Strike is also best utilized in formations that are 100% First Striking; Having a few first strikes is not really effective and sometimes even detrimental (as the poor Banshee Exarchs can attest).

Personally I find pure CC formations much harder to use effectively than pure FF or mixed CC/FF, and Striking Scorpions just plays much better in mixed formations.

I don't play with NetEA lists so I'm not permitted to have an opinion or offer suggestions on them? I thought list development was an open and inclusive process?

my point was that people say unit x is sub-par, perhaps they should consider that they may not be using it correctly, if a beginner picked up a necron army, they may well lose horribly for their first few games and conclude that necrons are rubbish..... whereas it's more of a case that they need to practice and learn how to use them most effectively.... I think good players can win games with supposedly sub-par units

as an aside, his name isn't Robert, it's Richard.... I wouldn't normally point it out, but you made the mistake previously in the LatD Redux Argument discussion.... give credit where it's due....

I think the banshees are seen as a more situational aspect, being strong against a more limited selection of troops, mods to their weapons either giving them inf-MW or 'assassin' doesn't really change that.... after all, turn up with banshees against minervans or another armoured list and those extra abilities are wasted.... it still keeps them situational, perhaps a little broader

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Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Your opinion is very welcome. Please refer to NetEA lists however, and if you don't, please mention the topical differences, so we can have an honest debate.



Good players can win, good point. However when only good players win with a certain list configuration, perhaps there is a list configuration issue. Then we can argue on whether the rule should be tailored to fit the exceptionally good players or all the others. We have not had that debate yet. Perhaps we should, considering even for the Eldar, an exceptionally good player (Moscovian) rarely loses with 400 pts. Phoenixes at 3k points, when most others do.



Right. Robert.



You yourself have suggested in your above post that Banshees should get infiltrate, therefore you seem to agree that Banshees are currently underpowered.

Concerning your opinion that power weapon attacks should not be introduced in Epic, I believe that point has come across quite clearly.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Thanks for your permission and the posting guidelines, I'll bear that in mind if at any point in the past few posts I hadn't been very clear on which list I was referring to

I have suggested that *if* it is felt that a buff is justified, giving them infiltrate would be easier than inventing and applying a brand new special rule.... it also seems that we agree (what is this bizarro world?) that giving the exarchs first strike is a sensible idea and gives them another little tiny boost

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Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

I agree that CC exarchs should get a boost. I prefer MW for all CC Exarchs than aspect specific boosts for list toiletting motives.

The EUK option has many problems of its own, and therefore I am not in favour of it.

I don't find it bizarre that we would agree on some, if not most points.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

I think MW on banshee attacks is sub-optimal though as you can take the FS hit and prevent the macro rolling over to the rest of the unit.... FS evens them all out and means no dodging the exarch

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Just some guy

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Army Forge List Co-ordinator

That resolution of MW attacks is completely ridiculous, although the current ruling would tend to agree with you.

It poses severeal problems with several lists (Rough Riders are another good example) and list designing in general.

MW CC attacks on units with First strike getting to attack in any case if they were in contact with the enemy at the start of the assault is as justified as the flying power fists, and the ruling should go in that direction.

In any case, even if that was not changed, I would still rather have MW Exarch attacks rather than FS.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

The Biel-Tan 4.1 list in the OP has banshees at CC3+, with MW against Infantry targets only.



Were you referring to MW-Inf or straight MW here? Because if you meant MW-Inf, this worries me a great deal. Warp Spiders are the best of the Apects by a good margin. If the MW-Inf Banshees are at the same level they're too strong.

Ultimately, I think both Inf-MW and Assassin are poor solutions to the problem. The reason I feel they are poor is largely because I feel they mesh poorly with the rules. Since hits are pooled in Epic, Assassin would require either that the enemy get the armor mod for simply being in BtB (and not that that particular unit hit), or an exception to the pooling (unwieldy, particularly when you have two units in BtB on one or both sides). Inf-MW would require a whole raft of clarifications to what order hits were applied in the MW pool or, even worse, require a whole seperate hit pool.

I think we might be able to go the EUK route and personalize the Exarch Weapons a bit more, which should help a bit.

I'm of a mind to leave Phoenixes alone, or maybe drop them 25pt at the most. They have a heavy loadout and excellent armor. They'd make wicked tank hunters and should be passable against Infantry too.

Cobras... another problem child. Can any of you EUK chaps tell me how they've done so far? Ignore Shields is another option, perhaps.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I'd also like to see some testing on Banshees with Infiltrate. No promises it'd make the cut, but it's at least possible at this point.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I think cobras have barely been taken at all, if you weren't aware they have recently had a revision with two fire modes on the gun, still 30cm but either 3BP IC, or TK3+ (D6)

however this was very recent so not sure if there are any tournament results with them yet

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Just some guy

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Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Thanks, that was what I was asking about.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I'll be painting up an eldar force next year, keen to try the cobras out, so ask me again in 6 months

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Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

I meant the stats that I posted with MW inf on Banshees and MW on the Exarch EAs. Note that these stats have not received extensive testing at all. Just one game, where the banshees charged a 2 Deathwheel formation out of a Storm Serpent with Inflitrate, won the assault, and consolidated to cover next to the Strom serpent. Next turn, I won initiative and charged into a CSM formation and won the assault again.




Hits are pooled except for the many exceptions, chief among them being disrupt shots not mixed with non disrupt shots. Having MW inf with an integrated rule that they should be allocated first is easy and simple imho.
As many others have stated, the new stats are good, just perhaps with Infiltrate on top.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell