Reviewing Spirit Stones |
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VanDamneg
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones  Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:52 pm |
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I think to a lot of people it's important that the solution not only works but makes sense to the background. Therefore leaving the rule called spirit stones but restricting to vehicles say would seem wrong (If anything infantry have more use for spirit stones in the background as there are more living souls).
Perhaps you could tie the rule into some sort of eldar technology which makes vehicles more maneuvrable/resilient. I seem to remember that eldar vehicles could take as upgrade called a wraithbone core (at least in 2nd ed 40k). This could represent the core taking over even if the crew are supressed. Just a suggestion.
However I'm not entirely sure which vehicles need the BM management so I can't think of a rule specifically that fits.
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Chroma
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:13 pm |
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| Quote (VanDamneg @ 15 Mar. 2006 (13:52)) | | I think to a lot of people it's important that the solution not only works but makes sense to the background. ?Therefore leaving the rule called spirit stones but restricting to vehicles say would seem wrong (If anything infantry have more use for spirit stones in the background as there are more living souls). |
I believe that's what would be the "fluff" justification of having "Spirit Stones" just on vehicle units... the spirits contained in the Stones are lending their power/wisdom to the vehicles.
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Tactica
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:56 pm |
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| Quote (Chroma @ 15 Mar. 2006 (08:13)) | | Quote (VanDamneg @ 15 Mar. 2006 (13:52)) | | I think to a lot of people it's important that the solution not only works but makes sense to the background. ?Therefore leaving the rule called spirit stones but restricting to vehicles say would seem wrong (If anything infantry have more use for spirit stones in the background as there are more living souls). |
I believe that's what would be the "fluff" justification of having "Spirit Stones" just on vehicle units... the spirits contained in the Stones are lending their power/wisdom to the vehicles. |
@Chrmoa,
Exactly. Spirit Stones are not on infantry.
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VanDamneg
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:20 pm |
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| Quote (Tactica @ 15 Mar. 2006 (14:56)) | | Quote (Chroma @ 15 Mar. 2006 (08:13)) | | Quote (VanDamneg @ 15 Mar. 2006 (13:52)) | | I think to a lot of people it's important that the solution not only works but makes sense to the background. ?Therefore leaving the rule called spirit stones but restricting to vehicles say would seem wrong (If anything infantry have more use for spirit stones in the background as there are more living souls). |
I believe that's what would be the "fluff" justification of having "Spirit Stones" just on vehicle units... the spirits contained in the Stones are lending their power/wisdom to the vehicles. |
@Chrmoa,
Exactly. Spirit Stones are not on infantry. |
Don't all eldar wear a spirit stone so that if they die their spirit is captured in the stone? ?I thought the idea was that this would make the eldar less afraid of dying i.e. less affected by BMs.
Also am I correct in thinking it's mainly the small vehicle formations that need the BM removal?
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:32 pm |
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| Quote (VanDamneg @ 15 Mar. 2006 (09:20)) | | Also am I correct in thinking it's mainly the small vehicle formations that need the BM removal? |
Yes, but thats all Eldar vehicle [LV/AV] formations, since all eldar vehicle formations are small.
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VanDamneg
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:49 pm |
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| Quote (semajnollissor @ 15 Mar. 2006 (15:32)) | | Quote (VanDamneg @ 15 Mar. 2006 (09:20)) | | Also am I correct in thinking it's mainly the small vehicle formations that need the BM removal? |
Yes, but thats all Eldar vehicle [LV/AV] formations, since all eldar vehicle formations are small. |
Ok that seems like a good solution. However do Engines of Vaul need spirit stones and if not how do you explain away the fact that the eldar upgrade their lesser tanks but ignore their best tanks?
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:59 pm |
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| Quote (VanDamneg @ 15 Mar. 2006 (09:49)) | | Ok that seems like a good solution. ?However do Engines of Vaul need spirit stones and if not how do you explain away the fact that the eldar upgrade their lesser tanks but ignore their best tanks? |
Well, I'm somewhat agnostic on whether the EoVs should get the ability - I'm on the fence. However, you could probably justify EoV's not having the ability by saying that its effects are rolled up into the existing rules for WE - i.e. they don't get suppressed easily, etc. The effect of a vehicle-base spiritstone would be smaller than the effect of being a big-a.. vehicle.
Similarly, one could also explain that the effects of the spiritstones in titans is reflected in their being fearless.
Okay, so all that is a bit of a stretch, but some people might buy it. Maybe EoVs should get the ability - I don't think it matters too much, as the only times it makes a difference in the EoV's case when they have 2-3 BMs, or if a squadron of 2 EoVs rallies after being broken. I think if we test this tiype of rule, we should start with the most broad application and then reduce it as needed.
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thurse
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:46 pm |
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Considering MC23 said the Eldar list was developed for more than just GT scenerios is also concerning. Considering the 'original problem' was for games going beyond turns 3-4 it means the original problem was beyond GT games.
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2) On my behalf, I dont know if eldars would have problems with BM in a GT scenario without the stones, as I have always played with them
2) If we consider that is it is true, I suggest removing the rule and replace it by something like that : "Eldar are a hopeless dying race that never abandon even in very long battle", and ?give them a BM removal bonus at the end of turn 4 and later turns.
3) IMHO, balancing an army list for other scenarios is utopic, as you cannot foresee other scenarios...
4) On my previous post ( and in this one...) I did not say that I would like spirit stones removed : I just considered that the best way to solve the problem would be testing the army without it, so we can see who really needs it. But it appears that it was done before and that there is no major BM issue before turn 5. Do old the old players agree?
Cheers!
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VanDamneg
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:55 pm |
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| Quote (semajnollissor @ 15 Mar. 2006 (15:59)) | Well, I'm somewhat agnostic on whether the EoVs should get the ability - I'm on the fence. However, you could probably justify EoV's not having the ability by saying that its effects are rolled up into the existing rules for WE - i.e. they don't get suppressed easily, etc. The effect of a vehicle-base spiritstone would be smaller than the effect of being a big-a.. vehicle.
Similarly, one could also explain that the effects of the spiritstones in titans is reflected in their being fearless.
Okay, so all that is a bit of a stretch, but some people might buy it. Maybe EoVs should get the ability - I don't think it matters too much, as the only times it makes a difference in the EoV's case when they have 2-3 BMs, or if a squadron of 2 EoVs rallies after being broken. I think if we test this tiype of rule, we should start with the most broad application and then reduce it as needed. |
I don't like the idea of fudging reasons as to why certain units don't have certain special rules. I'm less bothered about titans not having spirit stones as they seem an entirely different construct so the same concepts don't have to apply but EoV are too similiar to the smaller grav tanks.
I think that it wouldn't be too much of a problem for EoV to get spirit stones. What do other people think?
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:25 pm |
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Don't all eldar wear a spirit stone so that if they die their spirit is captured in the stone? I thought the idea was that this would make the eldar less afraid of dying i.e. less affected by BMs. |
Yes, all Eldar carry Spirit Stones to capture their spirit when they die so that Slaanesh doesn't get to eat it. And yes, the lack of fear of death is the way the background for the Spirit Stones rule is written.
However, that's just not in keeping with the way the rule works or really the Eldar mindset as portrayed in other background.
Per the background for the Spirit Stone vehicle upgrade in 40K, the vehicles basically have an Infinity Circuit like a craftworld (only much smaller, obviously). The spirits in the vehicle have a rudimentary awareness, below even the level of wraith constructs, that allow them to help prevent disastrous things from happening by exerting modest control over ship functions in emergencies.
Using that as a basis for making the Epic Spirit Stones rule vehicle-only seems a bit of a stretch, since it's supposed to be an upgrade rather than standard, but it's definitely better than the current background for the stones and would solve the problem.
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Markconz
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:40 pm |
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| Quote (VanDamneg @ 15 Mar. 2006 (17:55)) | | Quote (semajnollissor @ 15 Mar. 2006 (15:59)) | Well, I'm somewhat agnostic on whether the EoVs should get the ability - I'm on the fence. However, you could probably justify EoV's not having the ability by saying that its effects are rolled up into the existing rules for WE - i.e. they don't get suppressed easily, etc. The effect of a vehicle-base spiritstone would be smaller than the effect of being a big-a.. vehicle.
Similarly, one could also explain that the effects of the spiritstones in titans is reflected in their being fearless.
Okay, so all that is a bit of a stretch, but some people might buy it. Maybe EoVs should get the ability - I don't think it matters too much, as the only times it makes a difference in the EoV's case when they have 2-3 BMs, or if a squadron of 2 EoVs rallies after being broken. I think if we test this tiype of rule, we should start with the most broad application and then reduce it as needed. |
I don't like the idea of fudging reasons as to why certain units don't have certain special rules. ?I'm less bothered about titans not having spirit stones as they seem an entirely different construct so the same concepts don't have to apply but EoV are too similiar to the smaller grav tanks.
I think that it wouldn't be too much of a problem for EoV to get spirit stones. ?What do other people think? |
VanDamneg there is a piece of eldar tech in 40k which goes on vehicles and reuces the effects of suppression on them, unfortuantely it is called a holofield. However spirit stones is also an upgrade for 40k eldar vehicles and has a somewhat similar effect.... here's some extracts from 40k tacticas (on dysartes.com) about them:
Wave Serpent
"As to upgrades, sadly you can't give it a holofield, but a spirit stone may be advisable as it can keep you moving/shooting adding to it's durability."
Falcon
"As to upgrades I would recommend the ever useful spirit stones, which will keep your tank moving and firing a good deal of the time... "
Sounds like 'spirit stones' is just the sort of thing we are actually after, - ie we are perfectly justified in just keeping the 'spirit stone' name, and just restricting it to certain vehicle types.
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VanDamneg
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:33 pm |
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Seems like the obvious solution then. If you make sure you describe them in combination with a basic infinity circuit it'll make sense to people for whom fluff is important. I realise this is for the GT list but most the casual players I know use the GT scenario anyway.
However what are people's opinions on EoV having spirit stones. I know I keep asking this question but I've not been a part of this discussion from the start and am trying to get up to speed.
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Markconz
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:54 pm |
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Regarding giving it to Engines of Vaul (in addition to falcons, firestorms, fire prisms, night spinners):
I'm against it (but not fanatically...)
Reason 1 - they don't need it. Justification if needed - they are bigger, slower, and have heavier armour which makes it more difficult for them to negate the effects of enemy fire using spirit stones (or something like that...), or the effect is already included in their rules as WE.
Related questions:
1. Should wave serpents and falcons get it when transporting?(I'd definitely restrict this to 'if troops entirely embarked')
2. Should vypers get it?
Taking a cue from 40k ?I would say yes to 1 and no to 2. I've never seen spirit stones actually used on vypers in that game.
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:21 am |
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Remember, it really isn't a matter of what units should get the ability, but a matter of what formations should get the ability.
Because the Warhost do not need the ability, they should not get it. Same with EoVs and Vypers, if they do not need it.
As for Vypers, I think they do need it, as they seem to be a poor choice compared to jetbikes. I can understand taking one vyper, just to place BMs, but they open the unit up to AV fire so they seem to be more of a liability than a benefit.
If the ability were limited to formations that only consist of AV or LVs, then I think, it will work well.
But, we've been over all this before. You know, I'd be really interested to hear what JJ thinks (if he's even keeping track of anything epic related).
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MC23
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Post subject: Reviewing Spirit Stones Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:54 am |
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| Quote (Tactica @ 14 Mar. 2006 (11:00)) | NOTE: We can extrapolate from what TRC and Dysartes have said the army champions responsibilities are.
It means we have an army development fundamental principle conflict amongst development champions. |
No because all that is utter nonsense. I'm not even sure where or even why you are going on such a twisted tangent. We have two points to deal with.
Army list: the units and army rules.
Tournament List: Composition and point costs for tournament games only.
They are not one in the same although they are intertwined. That is why they do not appear in the same sections
And for the record my champion status is with all the sub lists. Tepoc is the real authority on the army list, mine are mostly on Tournament list aspect but a lot of issues keep us going back to the Army list itself. So what I am doing now in Tepoc abscence is trying my best to direct these issues into something useful following the same process we've been doing from the start.
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