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[Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
nealhunt
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:03 pm 
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(Markconz @ Aug. 24 2007,13:10)
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My friend uses black guardians with walkers and vypers to guard his blitz.

Is that legal?

Vypers and Bikes are listed in the "mounted" option.  Maybe it's a holdover from the either/or formation composition option in the BT list, but I always took that to mean that you can't take them unless you mounted the formation.  Basically:

Foot formation - walker and weapon platforms available
Mounted formation - vypers and bikes availabe

If that's not the intent, why is the Vyper/Bike option listed under the paragraph which begins "Alternately..." as if you can't take those options with the ones listed above?

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:10 pm 
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Neal - no you are correct, I'm thinking of some games a long time ago... sorry everyone!

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:52 pm 
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Well, it could be more clear.  Perhaps it would be worth it to split the Black Guardian Host into 2 entries:

Host w/ foot upgrades
Host in WS w/ Falcon, Bike and Vyper upgrades

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:00 pm 
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(thurse @ Aug. 24 2007,12:29)
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So why SR5? The list is balanced with SR4.

This was one of the inital guides for the army list. As Ulthwe have a large number of Seers this brings up their SR. The draw back then comes with the reduced availablitity of Aspects.

Previously we have looked at increase in SR to 5 if Seer council was added, but then there were problems if the council died, did the SR remain at 5 or drop to 4?

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:42 pm 
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(Hena @ Aug. 24 2007,20:25)
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One thing to note now. Sotec posted a final update to the 1.8. It has Firestorms limited to 1 unit per Swords of Vaul. If Ulthwe cannot take Shields of Vaul (as they cannot take Nightspinners) then there is a noticeable effect on ground based AA. Would it be enough to counter the SR?

Er, Hena, I'm reading the following on the SG boards:

4) Swords of Vaul: 5-6 grav tanks; Falcons for 50
points, Fire Prisms for 65 points, 0-2 Falcons may be replaced by Fire Storms

5) Shields of Vaul: 3 Night Spinners for 175 points. Any Night spinner may be replaced with a Fire Storm.

Just looked over it again... the "long" version and the "shortened" version are different... *sigh*

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:47 pm 
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(Hena @ Aug. 24 2007,20:25)
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(as they cannot take Nightspinners)

Ulthw? can't take Voidspinners, they can still take Night Spinners... at least I haven't heard of any such limitation.

Ulthw? armies are supposed to be "Guardian heavy"... and that's generally taken to mean "Guardian troopers", not Guardian-crewed things, as these Guardians replace the ranks of Aspect Warriors present in many other Craftworlds.

To me "forcing" the Ulthw? player to have more Guardians (and three formations of them is more than enough to get in a *LOT* of options) is a *good* thing, in my opinion.  Even with just two Warhosts, there are plenty of different armies that can be created.

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:08 pm 
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This is bad excuse, but in 40k eye of terror ulhwe strikefore has BG crewed vehicles (vypers and war walkers).

And in my opinion, guardian heavy really means guardians in every way. They are just lacking aspects.

Yes, aspects are made of guardians, but that really ain't reason to limit ulhwe having vehicle formations.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:11 pm 
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(Charad @ Aug. 24 2007,21:08)
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This is bad excuse, but in 40k eye of terror ulhwe strikefore has BG crewed vehicles (vypers and war walkers).

And they can get Vypers and War Walkers both in their BG Warhosts and as regular Troupes.

Yes, aspects are made of guardians, but that really ain't reason to limit ulhwe having vehicle formations.
All it means is they need to take more "basic" Guardian formations is all, they can still get all the various options.

And you don't even need to spend the points on Black Guardians if you don't want to if you need to save points for other options.

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:27 pm 
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And they can get Vypers and War Walkers both in their BG Warhosts and as regular Troupes.


My bad, I really forgot that. :)  I tried them once, but found that 50pts a piece too much for my taste and slowly some memories have faded.

Ah, I'll give up on this... Let it be more guardians then...

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:32 pm 
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(Charad @ Aug. 24 2007,21:27)
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My bad, I really forgot that. :) ?I tried them once, but found that 50pts a piece too much for my taste and slowly some memories have faded.

Well, that might be something to address.

Perhaps a fixed "Three for 100 points" for the Jetbikes/Vypers.

I'd rather put hits on the Vypers than risk Wave Serpents filled with Guardians!  *laugh*

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:40 pm 
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They have their uses, but also make mounted unit vulnerable to AP weapons.
Fixed point value for 3 sounds good, eldars have pretty solid numbers on formations, so I support this. Also discount would make them used more (or at least I would use them more often). :)

I have plans of a bigger game with ulhwe against hena at fall. I'll try this newest list and I think hena will write a nice report on that too. :)

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:23 pm 
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(Chroma @ Aug. 24 2007,19:42)
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4) Swords of Vaul: 5-6 grav tanks; Falcons for 50
points, Fire Prisms for 65 points, 0-2 Falcons may be replaced by Fire Storms

5) Shields of Vaul: 3 Night Spinners for 175 points. Any Night spinner may be replaced with a Fire Storm.

Just looked over it again... the "long" version and the "shortened" version are different... *sigh*

Lol  :D

He didn't bother fixing the problem then, ah well. Just means we have to.

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:23 am 
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They really aren't too good statswise when used alone in small formation. Mainly they are much stronger when combined with falcons. Hydras have even better ground shooting, and they are almost as fast as firestorms.

After these mods really no stats change is needed.

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