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Lugganath Craftworld 0.1

 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:36 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Dec. 08 2006,15:17)
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What are your thoughts on the Knights? ?I feel they are priced well for what they are, but will they hold up? ?Should their stats be increased?

They seem priced fine for their stats, perhaps even a little high, not sure why (other than aesthetics) I'd take them instead of Swords of Vaul and such though.

As well, I despise the idea of 1DC War Engines. ?I've always disliked it, even in the AMTL list.

What is the reasoning for 1DC instead of just being an AV? ?Is it so they block LOS or can barge? ?Shouldn't, going by weight class/hardness, Land Raiders and Monoliths be 1DC units as well?

What do you find over the top with their Swordwind stats?





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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:45 pm 
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I like Chroma's idea for naming conventions.

As far as titan weapons, I am most hesitant about the Sceptre and the D-Cannons.  Balancing those will be extremely tricky.  I would probably advise against the readius effects on the sceptre.  They're in the AMTL list because of the SM/TL history but the EA mechanics don't suit them as well.  The only similar historical item I can recall for Eldar is the War Cry psychic power for the Warlock Titan in SM/TL which is easily modeled as Inspiring on the unit itself.

Titan prices look pretty good for a starting point.

I think the knights are probably a little bit too expensive.  Those 3-unit formations are fragile and they don't have the option of increasing formation size like the Imperial knights in the AMTL list.  For an external comparison, their shields are better than the Imperial versions but they have less firepower, especially in assault.  For an internal comparison, what advantages would 3 Bright Stallions have over a standard Revenant that would justify costing 25 points more?  Worse firepower, worse durability, slower and w/o jump packs, with only the increased FF in return.

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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:02 pm 
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(Chroma @ Dec. 08 2006,10:36)
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What is the reasoning for 1DC instead of just being an AV?

I believe the main reasoning for it is to allow vehicles like Land Raiders to carry infantry that's in another formation.

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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:36 pm 
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I haven't really read through all of this thread, but I feel the need to point out that the differing weapon loads for the phantom titan are clearly not equivalent.

A tremor cannon is clearly worse than a pulsar (they have the same stats except the tremor cannon trades the TK ability for disrupt). Why bother?

I thought up an Eldar Titan Clan list last year, here's my list of titan weapons:

Eldar battle titan primary weapons (titans must be armed with 2 weapons, chosen from this list)

Fusion Lance 60cm MW2+, TK(1)
or 45cm MW2+, TK(2)
or 30cm MW2+, TK(3)
or 15cm MW2+, TK(4)

Pulsar 75cm MW3+, pulse, TK(1)

Tremor Cannon 60cm 4BP, disrupt, lance
(alternate possibility) Tremor Cannon 60cm 2xAP5+/AT3+, pulse, disrupt, lance

Distortion Cannon 45cm 2BP, ignore cover, TK(D3+1)

Power Fist 30cm 6xAP4+/AT4+
or small arms, extra attacks (+3)
or assault weapon, extra attacks (+2), TK(D3)

Psychic Lance* 30cm 3BP ignore cover, disrupt *Warlock only
or small arms, ignore cover, extra attacks (+2), TK(D3)

My thoughts: I decided to limit myself to the existing weapon models, though I would actually prefer to add one more. Personally, I feel that the Eldar should get at least one very long ranged weapon with moderate-to-weak power. In the list I made, I wanted to give the fusion lance a second firing mode that fills this role. I?m not all that happy with my solution, but I wanted to find a happy medium between fitting with the old fluff, and providing a useful range of weapons. Ideally there would be a separate weapon that would have the stat line given for the long-ranged fire mode I?ve given to the Fusion Lance, with a possible addition of the sniper ability.
Another thing you should notice is that I did not use the suggested weapon stats given in the swordwind collectors-model section, mainly because they weren?t balanced to be equivalent to the standard pulsar. The most obvious example of this was the tremor cannon, which was exactly the same as a Pulsar except for having the disrupt ability instead of the TK ability. The D-cannon had its own problem, in that it seemed to match the stats of an older version of the D-cannon on the cobra. I opted to make the tremor cannon a barrage weapon with the lance ability to represent its superior ability against hardened targets over softer ones. I made the D-cannon into a slightly longer ranged version of the cobra?s gun. I kept the Fusion Lance the same (except for the secondary fire mode I mentioned above), but I am concerned that the rules need to be made more clear (at a range of 10cm, does it get TK(5) or TK(4)?).

Eldar battle titan secondary weapons (titans must be armed with 2 weapons, chosen from this list)

Twin Eldar Missile Launcher 45cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+
Twin Pulse Laser 45cm AT3+, pulse

Vibro Blade assault weapon, extra attack (+2), MW

Psi Talons small arms, extra attack(+1), lance, first strike
or assault weapon, extra attacks(+1), lance, first strike

My thoughts: The first two weapons on this list are there to give rules for the existing models. I figured that a twin pulse laser would be more equivalent to the missile launcher than a twin bright lance would be. The third and fourth weapons listed don?t really attach at the shoulder mounted, but it can be claimed that the power they draw prevents the use of the other two. I image that these CC/FF weapons would actually attach to the barrels of the main weapons. This would be a relatively straight forward conversion. I also felt that it was necessary to include some CC/FF weapons in the secondary list to keep parity between the AMTL titans and the Eldar ones. No equivalent to the chain fist or wrecker ball exists for the Eldar, so these ?bayonet? weapons help make up the difference.


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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:56 pm 
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Sem, good suggestions all around.  If you don't mind, I'll try incorporating them into the Lugganath list.  Although the many weapon types will mean I have to change the format by which the units are described, but that isn't too big of a deal.

Knights - maybe the trick is to just bump them to 2 DC each and add an extra 'something' to them.  They are big enough to be 2DC (although just barely).  That would take the annoyance factor out of the equation entirely.  It would also make them more worth taking.  As I bang away at this for the next few weeks I will continue to take input from anyone who wants to make suggestions.

The Scepter is just an idea that would be fun and would appear on the Magnate Titan alone.  At 1200 points for that titan, it will be difficult to balance the list anyway  :p  so it doesn't come as any surprise.

Ultimately balancing the Lugganath list will be tricky regardless of whether I gave them scepters or lances or wiffle balls.  I knew it was going to be a challenge, but if the Dark Eldar can be done, surely an Eldar Titan list is possible. :cool:

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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:20 pm 
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I've always been of the opinion that the Eldar knights should be the same type of vehicle as the AMTL knights, if only to avoid confusion. There is parity between titan types, there should probably be parity between knights as well.

Whether that's a 1DC WE or just an AV is less of a concern on my part.


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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:34 pm 
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(Chroma @ Dec. 08 2006,15:36)
QUOTE
What is the reasoning for 1DC instead of just being an AV?  Is it so they block LOS or can barge?  Shouldn't, going by weight class/hardness, Land Raiders and Monoliths be 1DC units as well?

If you're interested in an itemized list of differences you can check the AMTL discussions.  Tactica posted it several times in response to various other posters.

IMHO, the really big difference is that WEs in an assault can choose FF or CC which can make a big difference in how frequently they can use special FF/CC weapon.  That has obvious synergies with barging as well, making assault specialist WEs very nasty indeed.  For example, Paladins have a First Strike FF attack they are still allowed to use when in base contact that wouldn't apply if they were AVs.

There are also some other minor changes to things like how terrain affects them (generally, more favorable for WEs).

Aside from the effects on assault, though, I think it's fiddly for relatively little return and argued against it for Knights.

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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:49 pm 
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I had a vague feeling that somewhere in this thread you were looking for the blocky, MkII Eldar Titans. Just wanted to say there's 3 on Ebay at the moment. They look a bit expensive to me, but if you really want them....
Here's the link:
http://tinyurl.com/y7zqb5

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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:32 am 
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Many thanks!

However, www.chaosorc.com has them for $25 and I don't have to worry about the bid.  With 2 day shipping it was the way to go. :)

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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:15 am 
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The New Black Gobbo, in the Weekly G/W- US E-NL, has intell on the 10
Major Craftworlds, including Lugannath ... ?And the rust armor and blue Helms (as shown on this thread) are in keeping with the fluff from years ago ... ?Also in an old CJ article, IIRC, along with Dinos, the Exodites were big users of Knights. ?Don't know if that is any help ... ? ?:alien:





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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:18 pm 
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Thanks for the info.  I rather like the rust look!

I haven't had much time to devote to the Lugganath list this past two weeks with our peak season in full swing.  I'll get something new together this weekend, folks.

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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:24 pm 
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isnt there already a list of eldar titan weapon point costs somewhere ? i had thought e and c had included some in his list.

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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:40 pm 
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(illuvitar @ Dec. 23 2006,16:24)
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isnt there already a list of eldar titan weapon point costs somewhere ? i had thought e and c had included some in his list.

Not me.

The modular list is Imperial Titans only.

Though pointed & statted Eldar Titans would be another step closer to an E:A-compatible AT. :)

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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:32 pm 
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any news here moscovian ?

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 Post subject: Lugganath Craftworld 0.1
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:23 pm 
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Sorry.  I just closed on my house this past week (FINALLY) and am painting this week.  I managed to get the new Dark Eldar list done, but nothing on the Lugganath.

The good thing is that I see the light at the end of the tunnel.  There is time for Epic once more!! :D   I'll try to put something out this weekend.

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