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ALternatives to Spirit Stones
Ginger
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:29 am 
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Hi guys

Could we discuss the formations that should benefit from the Spirit Stone "ability" - ignoring the mechanism for the moment.

From the trail, I think that most agree that this should be given to :-
- Fire Prism
- Night Spinner

Equally, I think most agree that many do not need it including :-
- Aircraft or Spacecraft
- Engines of Vaul or Titans
- Infantry in general
- War Walkers

But what do people think about the remainder, should they benefit or not?
- Wave Serpents
- Falcons (and Firestorms)
- Jet Bikes (Vypers and Shining Spears)

NOTE - before you complain, I have raised bikes as they are really "vehicles" although classified as Inf or LV

Cheers

Ginger

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Tactica
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:52 pm 
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Quote (Ginger @ 25 Feb. 2006 (20:29))

Ginger,

My vote for what its worth, I think the following SHOULD have the spirit stones rule from my understanding and expectation of game impact.

- Fire Prism
- Night Spinner
- Falcons (and Firestorms)
- Wave Serpents
- Wraithlords


I think the following here should NOT have the spirit stone rule.

- Aircraft
- Spacecraft
- Engines of Vaul
- Titans
- Infantry in general
- War Walkers
- Viper Jet bikes

Cheers,

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dysartes
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:25 am 
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Question for both Ginger & Tactica> How would you have Spirit Stone s(or equivalent) work in a formation where some units have it, and some don't?

F'rex, using Tactica's selections, a Guardian Warhost with Wraithlords in it.

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Markconz
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:27 am 
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Well I seem to be in general agreement with you guys then (except maybe Tactica's inclusion of ?Wraithlords which is something I don't think needs the rule).

To restate and clarify what i think should have it:

-Falcons and firestorms
-Wave serpents
-Fire Prisms
-Night Spinners

And let me point out that the following replacement of the spirit stone rule achieves this very elegantly (sorry ginger :;):
)

"Any eldar formation which consists entirely of armoured vehicles (and infantry if these are all currently embarked) removes an extra blast marker whenever it successfully rallies." ?

This also makes sense as these vehicles can gain the holofields and spirit stones special rules in 40k (which remove suppression effects in that game).




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Dobbsy
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:40 am 
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Okay, if we aren't keen on the unit data entry line (as no one seems to be sounding off in favour of it) I'll back Markconz's idea.
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Ginger
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:42 am 
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Ok guys

We seem to be nearly there then. The general consensus seems to be :-
  • That the Spirit Stone "ability" or "effect" is preferred to 'Agility' (sorry Tac) :)
  • That it is a formation wide effect.
  • That it applies to "All AV" formations (Night Spinners, Fire Prisms, Falcons (and Firestorms)
The only remaining stumbling block seems to be mixed formations - infantry with some AV present. There would appear to be three alternatives here :-
    a) Infantry formations do NOT benefit from the presence of AV
    b) Infantry formations DO benefit from the presence of AV
    c) Infantry formations benefit from AV ONLY if embarked
Perhaps we could discuss the merits or otherwise of these three options?

Note
- I am discounting as impractical, the possibility of removing a BM that directly applies to the AV unit of a mixed formation .
- Also, I am not distinguishing Wraithlords at present.

For what it's worth, I think I personally prefer a) on balance, as the effect can be countered if all AV in a formation are destroyed (making them obvious targets) - and it would probably give me more incentive to use Wraithlords. ?:D ?:laugh:

Also M. I think we may just have to disagree over whether there needs to be an entry against the effected unit types as well as some more general statement.

Cheers

Ginger

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Tactica
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:12 am 
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Quote (dysartes @ 26 Feb. 2006 (17:25))
Question for both Ginger & Tactica> How would you have Spirit Stone s(or equivalent) work in a formation where some units have it, and some don't?

F'rex, using Tactica's selections, a Guardian Warhost with Wraithlords in it.

I can't speak for ginger, but I see it as -

...if any unit in a formation has spirit stones when the formation successfully performs a regroup, then the formation may remove one additional blast marker.

Cheers,




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:13 am 
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Re MarK - I like the idea of it applying to IFV's if they have all their infantry embarked - no bugger stays in their transports otherwise in Epic! :) (Well Orks sometimes.)

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:19 pm 
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Quote (Ginger @ 26 Feb. 2006 (19:42))
Ok guys

We seem to be nearly there then. The general consensus seems to be ...

I don't think there is a consensus, necessarily, it's just that at this point we need to start testing a solution, so there just isn't oppostion to it. I only point this out because this isn't my prefered solution, but it will do for now.

Now, if this is the way we are going with this thread, here's what I think:

As to what units it should apply to, I think it should apply to all skimmer vehicles (including vypers and even the EoV's) - this leaves out the warwalkers, wraithlords, and titans, plus all infantry.

As to what formations it should apply to, I think it should only apply to formations that consist entirely of vehicles. This leaves out the warhosts and any windrider troupes that contain jetbikes.

This is the least complicated way of handling the situation. Since the warhosts don't actually need the help, I would suggest that we don't fool with any if/then crap for embarked/disembarked, blah blah blah. Keep it simple: all skimmer vehicles get the ability, only all-vehicle formations get to use the ability.

Some miscellanious thoughts - if the windrider host gets a bump in cost instead of the save on a jetbike decreasing, I would say allowing vypers to have the agility ability would be a good compromise.

Also, I don't think the ability should be called "agility," but should infact be called "spirit stones." I say this because the vehicles that will get to use this rule are not the most agile eldar vehicles (vypers might be, but revenants are pretty darned agile). However, these vehicles do use spirit stones in a manner that would account for the given effect.
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Hojyn
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:39 pm 
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Quote (semajnollissor @ 27 Feb. 2006 (16:19))
Keep it simple: all skimmer vehicles get the ability, only all-vehicle formations get to use the ability.

I like it.

It's simple, it's logical and it focuses the Spirit Stone ability on the formations that need it the most.

And I also like the fact that it applies to EoV, by the way.
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semajnollissor
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:49 pm 
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Well, I'm on the fence about including EoV's, but my view is that it probably won't overpower them (the new skimmer rules took care of their problems with balance, IMO). So, to keep things simple, why not include them in the group, too?
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Hojyn
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:51 pm 
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Quote (semajnollissor @ 27 Feb. 2006 (16:49))
Well, I'm on the fence about including EoV's, but my view is that it probably won't overpower them (the new skimmer rules took care of their problems with balance, IMO). So, to keep things simple, why not include them in the group, too?

I couldn't agree more.

Plus it's not really that different from an Imperial SHT with a (free, albeit random) Commissar.
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Jaldon
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:49 am 
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Ok, keep it limited to just pure AFV, the EoVs, and maybe the Jetbikes, and I agree we should try testing it at that.

My only concern, and I can live for now without it, is the opponents inability to attack the Limited Spirit Stones as they would Commisaars and the like that have leader. I mention it only because it is one of the complaints that I have recieved from Eldar opponents.

That said I believe this would be a good starting point.

Jaldon :p

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Markconz
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:20 am 
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Quote (semajnollissor @ 27 Feb. 2006 (15:19))
Quote (Ginger @ 26 Feb. 2006 (19:42))
Ok guys

We seem to be nearly there then. The general consensus seems to be ...

I don't think there is a consensus, necessarily, it's just that at this point we need to start testing a solution, so there just isn't oppostion to it. I only point this out because this isn't my prefered solution, but it will do for now.

Now, if this is the way we are going with this thread, here's what I think:

As to what units it should apply to, I think it should apply to all skimmer vehicles (including vypers and even the EoV's) - this leaves out the warwalkers, wraithlords, and titans, plus all infantry.

As to what formations it should apply to, I think it should only apply to formations that consist entirely of vehicles. This leaves out the warhosts and any windrider troupes that contain jetbikes.

This is the least complicated way of handling the situation. Since the warhosts don't actually need the help, I would suggest that we don't fool with any if/then crap for embarked/disembarked, blah blah blah. Keep it simple: all skimmer vehicles get the ability, only all-vehicle formations get to use the ability.

Some miscellanious thoughts - if the windrider host gets a bump in cost instead of the save on a jetbike decreasing, I would say allowing vypers to have the agility ability would be a good compromise.

Also, I don't think the ability should be called "agility," but should infact be called "spirit stones." I say this because the vehicles that will get to use this rule are not the most agile eldar vehicles (vypers might be, but revenants are pretty darned agile). However, these vehicles do use spirit stones in a manner that would account for the given effect.

Perhaps it is not a good idea to refer to other peoples preferences as 'crap' ?:angry: ?:;): ?

I almost feel that if you are going to also allow war engines and light vehicles to get the spirit stone rule (instead of the more elimited options favoured by others), then you may as well just leave it so that everything has it. Plus why should a formation of falcons lose their special ability just because they are carrying infantry - does the infantry weigh them down or something?! ?:80: Also as Real Chris suggested giving the rule to transported infantry formations gives them a nice boost (something that tends to suffer a bit in EA in my experience).


Nonetheless I agree we should choose something (and call it spirit stones) and playtest it.

My original option:

"Any eldar formation which consists entirely of armoured vehicles (and infantry if these are all currently embarked) removes an extra blast marker whenever it successfully rallies."

So this would mean:
-Falcons and firestorms
-Wave serpents
-Fire Prisms
-Night Spinners


or more expanded option suggested by semajnollissor:

"Any eldar formation which consists entirely of skimmers, which are also classed as light vehicles, armoured vehicles, or war engines, removes an extra blast marker whenever it successfully rallies."

So this would mean:
Falcons and Firestorms (though not falcons carrying infantry).
Fire Prisms
Nightspinners
Vypers
Storm Serpents
Void Spinners
Scorpions
Cobras.

I will start a poll to try and get a sense of what people favour.

Here:

http://www.epic40k.co.uk/epicomm....t=6265;




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semajnollissor
 Post subject: ALternatives to Spirit Stones
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:38 am 
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Whoa there, I'm not suggesting that jetbikes get the rule, just the vypers. I don't consider jetbikes to be vehicles - they're mounted infantry.

As to what formations it should apply to, I think it should only apply to formations that consist entirely of vehicles. This leaves out the warhosts and any windrider troupes that contain jetbikes.

And also, like I said, Im on the fence regarding the EoVs.

And also, I was under the impression that the warhosts don't need the the boost that this ability would give them. Now, I have no opinion on wether the troupes in the alt lists that can take transports need the ability. To be honest, I hadn't even considered them.

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