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[Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:53 am 
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Oh, and BT has better avatar too. :)

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:38 am 
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(Charad @ Aug. 23 2007,10:53)
QUOTE
Oh, and BT has better avatar too. :)

Good point - The avatar stats should be shown in the unit section for Ulthwe and the other craftworld lists to prevent people making the mistake of including the Court of the Young King.

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Soren
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:56 pm 
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To be honest I completely forgot about the Avatar :). Night(Void)spinners are never used in our gaming group as they die too easily.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:53 pm 
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SC is a no-brainer - almost every army out there has to pay for their SC and as far as I know only the Orks don't pay for theirs.  100 is a good price.

Void Spinners are the best artillery - period.  I would gladly demonstrate for anyone who thinks otherwise. :)

2-per rule.  Charad, I am trying to understand your objection to this but I just don't get it.  In a standard 3000 point army you are looking at 8-9 formations on the average.  If you had NO titans and NO air formations, you would need 3 guardian formations (one of which can be the Black Guardians) with the 2-per restriction.  That doesn't seem terribly excessive to me and that gives you 5-6 other formations to do with as you please.

If you add a titan or a couple air units you are looking at being restricted to 2 guardian formations.  So you are in a sense being locked to 300 points on a list of 3000 and 'locked' may be an overstatement since most Eldar players I know bring at least two Guardian formations anyway (regardless of the Craftworld).  You want to maximize the opportunity for your Avatar to come out and having a single Guardian formation is just plain silly (you might as well lay down a big arrow saying "attack this formation first").

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:41 pm 
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2 formations really ain't enough for 3k, 3 is a minimum

Example army- previous version
Avatar -
Wraithgate 50pts
Black Guardian Warhost: Seer Council, 4 Wave Serpents 450pts
Guardian Warhost: 3 Heavy Platforms, 3 Support Platforms, 2 Wraithguard 300pts
Swords of Vaul I: 3 Falcons, 2 Firestorms 250pts
Swords of Vaul II: 5 Fire Prims, 1 Firestorm 375pts
Windrider Troupe: 2 Vypers, 4 Jetbikes 200pts
Shields of Vaul: 3 Night Spinners 175pts
Aspect Troupe: 4 Dark Reapers, 2 Wave Serpents 250pts
2 Revenant Titans (BTS) 650pts
3 Nightwings 300pts
Total:3000pts

It has 2 warhosts, 5 troupes, so it is not possible with new version, also 50pts more to BG formation. If I drop jetbikes, I could take naked guardians instead (3 hosts, 4 troupes) and naked unit itself is a bit bad, so maybe reapers could go and I'll take storm serpent instead.
So list will look this

Avatar -
Wraithgate 50pts
Black Guardian Warhost: Seer Council, 4 Wave Serpents 500pts
Guardian Warhost: 3 Heavy Platforms, 3 Support Platforms, 2 Wraithguard 300pts
Guardian warhost:                                                     150pts
Swords of Vaul I: 3 Falcons, 2 Firestorms 250pts
Swords of Vaul II: 5 Fire Prims, 1 Firestorm 375pts
Storm serpent                                                            250pts
Shields of Vaul: 3 Night Spinners 175pts
2 Revenant Titans (BTS) 650pts
3 Nightwings 300pts
Total:3000pts

Army is still good and competitive, but guardians use 950pts and 300pts for their rides (portal and serpent). So I really don't have much left after some mandatory anti-air. I hope you now got my point, it is: that armies are going to look more the same and jetbikes, rangers and war walkers won't fir in it often.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:03 pm 
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Well there are couple of simple solutions.
1. Add a Guardian formation.  Even 'naked' ones are potent coming out of a storm serpent.  You could lose the jetbikes and still have 50 points left over for platforms.
2. Knock off a couple of those fire prisms and you'll have an extra 150 points real quick.

Also remember the Revenants will most likely be moving to 600 points, which means you can maximize your 1/3 restriction with 2 vampires or phoenix bombers (which are the best fighter-bombers EVER).
 
The above may not be the way you want to go, but it does illustrate that there are a lot of options still left in the Ulthwe list with the 2-per restriction.  If you are accustomed to taking certain formations every game then this will change things up for you for sure, but it won't be the end of the list.  That 5+ Strategy Rating should help things along.

On a side bar, the Avatar is powerful reagrdless of whether it has a CotYK or not.  With Guardians supporting you are almost guaranteed to break the toughest formations with it.

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:08 pm 
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You didn't read my post...
But anyway, it totally ain't end of the list just making it more oriented to engages.
I'm waiting for those points decreases, not just everything can go up all the time. Biggest point change for my opinion would be discounts for multiple EoV:s.
I usually use phoenixes, they are really effective. :)

True, avatar is good nevertheless that extra attack. I'm just little bored to how people dismiss BT, that list has many things superior to ulthwe.

I would always use my list as ulthwe, no matter the rules, but still I feel this 2 troupes per warhost isn't really a needed change.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:40 pm 
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I read it.  Let me ask you this, would you rather a 4+ SR and 3-per restriction?

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Charad
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:03 pm 
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And having aspect warhost instead of BG and access to void spinners, sure! But it will be different list then. :D

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Moscovian
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:15 pm 
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Well there you go!  :)  I think we're talking about the same thing.  5+ SR is a big deal since it is something that can never be taken away.  Chroma is trying to justify it on the list and this one restriction will make army construction more challenging to offset the ease of going first almost every turn.

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Soren
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:56 am 
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(Moscovian @ Aug. 23 2007,21:15)
QUOTE
Well there you go!  :)  I think we're talking about the same thing.  5+ SR is a big deal since it is something that can never be taken away.  Chroma is trying to justify it on the list and this one restriction will make army construction more challenging to offset the ease of going first almost every turn.

My words :)

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:22 am 
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(Charad @ Aug. 23 2007,19:08)
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Biggest point change for my opinion would be discounts for multiple EoV:s

I agree.  

250, 450, 700  

?

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thurse
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:29 pm 
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Hi!
Honestly, I like this list but  I don't think SR 5 is the way to go.

I used to play an ulthw?-like list using swordwind before I knew about this list.
I took no aspects troops and no void spinners. Such kind of list was very competitive, and as efficient as aspects heavy list. The only problem was the lack of SC.

With the Ulthw? list, I get more variety  with the small formations of aspects that perfect for hawks and dire avengers in wave serpents.

So why SR5? The list is balanced with SR4.

The only problem I see concerns black guradian. I only use them without upgrades in a vampire to get the 1+ init.
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Chroma
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:37 pm 
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(thurse @ Aug. 24 2007,12:29)
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The only problem I see concerns black guradian. I only use them without upgrades in a vampire to get the 1+ init.

Actually, if you stick them in a Vampire, you've only got 2+ Init, as you activate the aircraft to initiate a ground assault, not the formation(s) they may be carrying.

I've used Black Guardians with Wave Serpents and Vypers (to soak MW hits). ?With War Walkers and the various Platforms to make a decent shooting formation out of a 'Gate.

With 1+ init, they make a great assault formation out of a gate or as the anchor of a combined assault against hard targets.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Ulthw?] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:10 pm 
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My friend uses black guardians with walkers and vypers to guard his blitz. Especially against air assaults those units can be really useful. Force FF with vypers, Lance attacks with the Walkers against RA air transports. Things can get unpleasant fast...

The SR5 being unbalanced has been raised before and never successfully resolved. MC23 was in two minds about dropping it to 4 IIRC.

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